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Rival weightlifter speaks out on transgender Hubbard's Olympic place

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Re: Rival weightlifter speaks out on transgender Hubbard's Olympic place

#401

Post by maybeOneDay »

memling wrote: post #371
maybeOneDay wrote: post #317

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's possible to be against the idea of trans women competing in female competitive sports without intentionally misgendering all trans athletes/humans.

> It's possible to be against the idea of trans women competing in female competitive sports without intentionally misgendering all trans athletes/humans. Genuine question, one about which I haven't seen much in the way of conversation—although my experience is relatively limited. Why is the subjective experience of gender privileged over the objective biology of sex? I can anticipate a couple possible responses for…

2. Is definitely the counter argument I would use - if people have preferred pronouns then what is the ethical argument for ignoring those and using words that would cause them harm? If nothing else it seems to me to come down to basic decency and respect for others.

It's less about one term being "privileged" (I must confess that word seems slightly unclear to me in this context) over another and more about the ease of treating people the way they would like, with no real downsides that I can see.

Anecdotally, refusing to use a trans person's pronouns seems typically to be a dogwhistle for not respecting the existence/legitimacy of transgender people.

Re: Rival weightlifter speaks out on transgender Hubbard's Olympic place

#402

Post by dagw »

prox wrote: post #273
CodeGlitch wrote: post #195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But it doesn't change your skeletal structure, or the size of your lungs. Both of which dramatically affect your performance.

I think the core question is, does Hubbard have an advantage so she will win 95% of the time? If so, it’s not really a competition, especially if that result derives from her innate male physiology giving her an unfair advantage. We don’t allow doping either. If there is a way to level it out, that might be a solution, if it’s possible.

does Hubbard have an advantage so she will win 95% of the time?

The article suggests that she's top 10, but not top 3 in the world. She almost certainly won't win, but might get a medal (since 2 of the 3 best lifter in this category won't be competing in the Olympics for various reasons).

Re: Rival weightlifter speaks out on transgender Hubbard's Olympic place

#403

Post by trhway »

jefftk wrote: post #376
trhway wrote: post #335

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>impossible to do fairly we're at HN - run PCA and clustering on the totality of athletes' results and biological data for the last N decades with end result being the groups based on identified parameters similar to boxing/wrestling weight groups. >that would make sense to audiences. we're already in situation which is harder and harder to make sense. Putting it on the firm basis of scientific analysis is the only w…

What happens if you run PCA and it groups trans women in with men?

trans women by their nature already defy the classic notions of sex and gender (i.e. that classic match of software and hardware), so why does it matter whether they would get grouped with the men (i suppose you meant the classic notion of "men"), trans men, women or with any cross boundaries cutting group as long as the competition is honest (i.e. similar blood oxygen carrying capabilities with similar muscle mass with similar bone density or whatever PCA would point to)?

Also, if trans women are supposed to go to women competition, does it mean that trans men are supposed to go to men competition? Wouldn't that mean pretty much condemning them to having no chance of winning from the start in the most sports where sheer mass, power, etc. play major role?

Anyway, if we don't put it on the firm scientific basis today, i can see how tomorrow a number of male athletes form China and Russia would suddenly start to feel like they are women, may be would take some hormones to satisfy some doubts/requirements (giving the doping already going on i don't see any obstacles here), and that will be the end of female sports.

Re: Rival weightlifter speaks out on transgender Hubbard's Olympic place

#404

Post by llimos »

ivanbakel wrote: post #280
prox wrote: post #273

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the core question is, does Hubbard have an advantage so she will win 95% of the time? If so, it’s not really a competition, especially if that result derives from her innate male physiology giving her an unfair advantage. We don’t allow doping either. If there is a way to level it out, that might be a solution, if it’s possible.

>I think the core question is, does Hubbard have an advantage so she will win 95% of the time? If so, it’s not really a competition, especially if that result derives from her innate ... physiology giving her an unfair advantage. But this is true of lots of sports. Most recently, Simone Biles was punished by scoring judges for a gymnastic move that only she is able to perform, due to her height and musculature. "Gene…

The big difference is that these are genetic differences that already have a separate category, to compete against others with those same genetic differences.

Re: Rival weightlifter speaks out on transgender Hubbard's Olympic place

#405

Post by dagw »

buran77 wrote: post #344
ivanbakel wrote: post #280

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I think the core question is, does Hubbard have an advantage so she will win 95% of the time? If so, it’s not really a competition, especially if that result derives from her innate ... physiology giving her an unfair advantage. But this is true of lots of sports. Most recently, Simone Biles was punished by scoring judges for a gymnastic move that only she is able to perform, due to her height and musculature. "Gene…

While it's hard to draw a precise line, there's a clear difference between having some genetic features that give you an advantage, and having most genetic features that give you an advantage. Growing up under the influence of male genetics and hormones gives an individual a massive advantage in such a sport, that simply cannot be compensated for or against with just training or medical solutions. There's nothing tha…

The evidence is in the performance which falls squarely in line with male performance

The article seems to make clear that while she is in the top 10, she's not in the top 3 and is in no way a favorite to win. So I'm not sure what that graph is supposed to be showing.

Two women in this weight class have scored a 300+ in competition while Hubbard's best is a 285 from 2019.

Re: Rival weightlifter speaks out on transgender Hubbard's Olympic place

#406

Post by rocqua »

lotsofpulp wrote: post #345
rocqua wrote: post #332

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even though I largely agree with your conclusion, I strongly disagree that this problem is made artificially difficult. The fallout of a decision like this for professional athletes who are trans is huge. That fallout and the effects from that decision should not at all be taken lightly. Having an MTF proffesional athlete to compete in the male category is going to probably cause a lot of disphoria. It will also make…

> The impact this will have is huge and deserves significant consideration. The impact of making women’s competitions an impossibility for non MTF persons seems far greater in comparison.

I agree that it is greater. But disagree that it is far greater. Any argument that does not interrogate that question further is lacking in my opinion.

Re: Rival weightlifter speaks out on transgender Hubbard's Olympic place

#407

Post by llimos »

nandhinianand wrote: post #397
austincheney wrote: post #350

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If terminology is your hang up then how about BSA , birth sex assignment. Then it is only about biology and not about identity.

only if you ignore the brain and it's processes as not "biological phenomena"

Sport is about the body more than the brain. Particularly weightlifting.
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