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Rival weightlifter speaks out on transgender Hubbard's Olympic place

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Re: Rival weightlifter speaks out on transgender Hubbard's Olympic place

#311

Post by herodoturtle »

kristopolous wrote: post #293
herodoturtle wrote: post #281

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks for editing your comment to add the insight that you did. My original interpretation before your edit was that the article specifically talks about the need for a "stricter legal framework for transgender inclusion in sports", and I was confused when you said that it's a propaganda piece being used "to frame generalized trans discrimination". But now I better understand what you meant by "political football",…

Some people think they're very clever playing dumb with this stuff when they know exactly what's going on. It's one of the most insipid responses. I've dealt with it a lot. This is one of the exact topics where it happens because trans people have become the newest punching bag of online neonazis and fascists. They're obsessed with transphobia. That's where I first heard this "debate" about weightlifters years ago. C…

> Playing dumb is thoroughly bad faith trolling and I have absolutely no patience for their bs.

I completely agree with this sentiment.

My biological brother is trans and I support him as best I can. It's particularly tricky for him given the cultural conservatism of our community (which I'm guessing you can relate to if my assumption about your username is correct).

I know what you mean about trolls. And can see why you thought I may have been trolling you.

My initial point was sincere - albeit a bit naive it seems. Evidently I am not as politically astute as you.

Edit: thanks for the links. Will check them out.

Re: Rival weightlifter speaks out on transgender Hubbard's Olympic place

#312

Post by mft_ »

ryanobjc wrote: post #200
jp0d wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you'd asked me 10 years ago I probably would have said something disrespectful. I didn't know enough about trans-rights or lgbt rights. But over the years I've realised that they probably face a lot of injustice and indeed are marginalised in some societies. I've been working for a company that cares deeply about diversity and inclusion, which has helped me learn a lot. But, I still don't think it's fair for women…

> But, I still don't think it's fair for women that an individual who lived the prime of their life as a man, benefitting from all the testosterone and muscle mass Are you.... sure about this? Like how sure are you? What do you think you know? The human body changes surprisingly fast. Astronauts that stay in outer space for too long can't even walk when they return to earth. That "too long" is like... a year basicall…

> Are you.... sure about this? Like how sure are you? What do you think you know?

> The human body changes surprisingly fast. Astronauts that stay in outer space for too long can't even walk when they return to earth. That "too long" is like... a year basically.

> A "lifetime" of muscle mass will last for how long once someone starts taking androgen blockers then estrogen?

You raise a very fair question, but we have sufficient data to really support either position at the moment?

Do we have a way of knowing when an individual (or group of individuals) would have lost the ‘benefits’ to make competition truly fair?

Re: Rival weightlifter speaks out on transgender Hubbard's Olympic place

#313

Post by Supermancho »

anaisbetts wrote: post #292
CodeGlitch wrote: post #195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But it doesn't change your skeletal structure, or the size of your lungs. Both of which dramatically affect your performance.

Why would having the same muscle but heavier bones as your competitors be an advantage in almost any sport?

Increased bone density means less prone to injury and more momentum in pivots and swings/punches.

Re: Rival weightlifter speaks out on transgender Hubbard's Olympic place

#314

Post by gambiting »

So you know how few years back companies were peddling this idea that forcing your real name in comments will make the discussion more civil and proper?

Yeah, I can click on every single one of those people in this comment section, see their real name and their FB profile, and it still doesn't stop them from being vile on the internet.

Re: Rival weightlifter speaks out on transgender Hubbard's Olympic place

#315

Post by stefs »

prox wrote: post #273
CodeGlitch wrote: post #195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But it doesn't change your skeletal structure, or the size of your lungs. Both of which dramatically affect your performance.

I think the core question is, does Hubbard have an advantage so she will win 95% of the time? If so, it’s not really a competition, especially if that result derives from her innate male physiology giving her an unfair advantage. We don’t allow doping either. If there is a way to level it out, that might be a solution, if it’s possible.

there are athletes who might suffer from abnormal genetic mutations that might give them an advantage. the most popular example might be usain bolt who is, technically, too tall - but in combination with his abnormal muscularity ...

then there is robert förstemann, a track cyclist who might suffer from a myostatin deficincy (a hormone that restricts muscle growth).

Re: Rival weightlifter speaks out on transgender Hubbard's Olympic place

#316

Post by kristopolous »

herodoturtle wrote: post #311
kristopolous wrote: post #293

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some people think they're very clever playing dumb with this stuff when they know exactly what's going on. It's one of the most insipid responses. I've dealt with it a lot. This is one of the exact topics where it happens because trans people have become the newest punching bag of online neonazis and fascists. They're obsessed with transphobia. That's where I first heard this "debate" about weightlifters years ago. C…

> Playing dumb is thoroughly bad faith trolling and I have absolutely no patience for their bs. I completely agree with this sentiment. My biological brother is trans and I support him as best I can. It's particularly tricky for him given the cultural conservatism of our community (which I'm guessing you can relate to if my assumption about your username is correct). I know what you mean about trolls. And can see why…

The important thing is to just refuse these things.

Like with Willie Horton, it moved the debate on criminal justice reform to be replaced by a specific case where it didn't work. It's a Lee Atwater technique, he did the Welfare Queen and Willie Horton political projects. It's marketing positioning applied to politics.

Here, it's an attempt to move the discussion on human rights for transgendered people to instead be about a New Zealand weightlifter.

Just refuse the discussion. The bait and switch reframing is the technique. It doesn't matter what's said, it matters that the discussion focuses on it instead of broad human rights.

Re: Rival weightlifter speaks out on transgender Hubbard's Olympic place

#317

Post by maybeOneDay »

andyxor wrote: post #279
prox wrote: post #273

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the core question is, does Hubbard have an advantage so she will win 95% of the time? If so, it’s not really a competition, especially if that result derives from her innate male physiology giving her an unfair advantage. We don’t allow doping either. If there is a way to level it out, that might be a solution, if it’s possible.

The core question is when sanity will return and men will no longer be allowed to compete against women. Hopefully the wave of opposition to this travesty will be strong enough to change the regulations. Boycott the Olympics.

It's possible to be against the idea of trans women competing in female competitive sports without intentionally misgendering all trans athletes/humans.

Re: Rival weightlifter speaks out on transgender Hubbard's Olympic place

#318

Post by wreath »

globular-toast wrote: post #310

Let's consider getting rid of gendered sports entirely. Even women don't like women's sports as much as men's sports. Why would they? It's like watching the kids' league. Or like a bad B movie when you could be watching a Hollywood movie. You might say, well then women will have no chance of ever being involved in those sports at that elite level, and you'd be right. But 99% of men have no chance of being involved in…

Sports is basically a competition and a display of strength and athleticism. Because most men are stronger and more athletic than most women, it is more entertaining to watch. Organizing sports so that we are including more women for the sake of being inclusive is silly and defeats the purpose of sports. This is about competition on who is better than everyone else, not about equality or equity.

Re: Rival weightlifter speaks out on transgender Hubbard's Olympic place

#319

Post by maybeOneDay »

fxtentacle wrote: post #305
Clewza313 wrote: post #233

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Being "gender critical" is the view that trans women are not women. Not to be confused with the "anti-gender" movement, which opposes anything other than traditional male/female roles, or with "postgenderism", which argues the complete opposite, namely that traditional gender is irrelevant. TL;DR is that Maya was (apparently) fired for the first opinion, lost a first court case over it because being gender critical i…

That just seems weird to me. Most people want to have kids later in life. Of course trans women are different wrt that life goal.

Your argument is somewhat tangential - are you arguing women are defined by their ability to give birth? Seems fairly obvious that doesn't hold up even when we aren't talking about trans people

Re: Rival weightlifter speaks out on transgender Hubbard's Olympic place

#320

Post by errantspark »

yerwhat01010 wrote: post #242
ryanobjc wrote: post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But, I still don't think it's fair for women that an individual who lived the prime of their life as a man, benefitting from all the testosterone and muscle mass Are you.... sure about this? Like how sure are you? What do you think you know? The human body changes surprisingly fast. Astronauts that stay in outer space for too long can't even walk when they return to earth. That "too long" is like... a year basicall…

> So, are you SURE that an individual that "lived in the prime of their life as a man" is just as strong as they once were once they have spent years on hormone therapy? Yes. Male puberty confers lifelong physical advantages on the body in terms of muscle mass, heart size, lung capacity and bone density. That's why men dominate women physically in every sport, which is why women have their own special sporting catego…

I don't believe men dominate women in ultra-endurance racing. IIRC though the sample size is quite small it may be that extremely long distance racing actually favors women.
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