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Rival weightlifter speaks out on transgender Hubbard's Olympic place

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Re: Rival weightlifter speaks out on transgender Hubbard's Olympic place

#291

Post by shard972 »

ivanbakel wrote: post #280
prox wrote: post #273

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the core question is, does Hubbard have an advantage so she will win 95% of the time? If so, it’s not really a competition, especially if that result derives from her innate male physiology giving her an unfair advantage. We don’t allow doping either. If there is a way to level it out, that might be a solution, if it’s possible.

>I think the core question is, does Hubbard have an advantage so she will win 95% of the time? If so, it’s not really a competition, especially if that result derives from her innate ... physiology giving her an unfair advantage. But this is true of lots of sports. Most recently, Simone Biles was punished by scoring judges for a gymnastic move that only she is able to perform, due to her height and musculature. "Gene…

Hubbard's was a choice not a fact of nature.

Re: Rival weightlifter speaks out on transgender Hubbard's Olympic place

#292

Post by anaisbetts »

CodeGlitch wrote: post #195
makeworld wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Taking hormone therapy dramatically changes your body, making using just your sex also problematic. It's a complex subject. Here's the best article I've found on it: https://www.barbellmedicine.com/blog/shades-of-gray-sex-gend...

But it doesn't change your skeletal structure, or the size of your lungs. Both of which dramatically affect your performance.

Why would having the same muscle but heavier bones as your competitors be an advantage in almost any sport?

Re: Rival weightlifter speaks out on transgender Hubbard's Olympic place

#293

Post by kristopolous »

herodoturtle wrote: post #281
kristopolous wrote: post #267

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a political football. An internal technicality of an institutions rules committee being presented as an international debate is the politicizing thing here. This inflation is done all the time to push a political agenda. The "welfare queen" to ban humanitarianism, Willie Horton to create the modern carceral state. This is super common. Most of the time it fails, like with Garcia Zarate or Juan Leonardo Quintero…

Thanks for editing your comment to add the insight that you did. My original interpretation before your edit was that the article specifically talks about the need for a "stricter legal framework for transgender inclusion in sports", and I was confused when you said that it's a propaganda piece being used "to frame generalized trans discrimination". But now I better understand what you meant by "political football",…

Some people think they're very clever playing dumb with this stuff when they know exactly what's going on. It's one of the most insipid responses. I've dealt with it a lot.

This is one of the exact topics where it happens because trans people have become the newest punching bag of online neonazis and fascists. They're obsessed with transphobia. That's where I first heard this "debate" about weightlifters years ago.

Crap like this from 2018: https://therightscoop.com/gavin-hubbard-is-destroying-compet... deadnaming and misgendering.

And from 2017: https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/whatever-he-wins-is-worthl...

This exact person and this exact issue has been used to push sensationalist transphobic screeds for years

Playing dumb is thoroughly bad faith trolling and I have absolutely no patience for their bs.

Re: Rival weightlifter speaks out on transgender Hubbard's Olympic place

#294

Post by prox »

ivanbakel wrote: post #280
prox wrote: post #273

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the core question is, does Hubbard have an advantage so she will win 95% of the time? If so, it’s not really a competition, especially if that result derives from her innate male physiology giving her an unfair advantage. We don’t allow doping either. If there is a way to level it out, that might be a solution, if it’s possible.

>I think the core question is, does Hubbard have an advantage so she will win 95% of the time? If so, it’s not really a competition, especially if that result derives from her innate ... physiology giving her an unfair advantage. But this is true of lots of sports. Most recently, Simone Biles was punished by scoring judges for a gymnastic move that only she is able to perform, due to her height and musculature. "Gene…

Yeah, so is it unfair? Simone Biles has a genetic advantage, something she probably didn’t have any control over or influence in.

Hubbard does, to some extend?

In Formula 1, Mercedes has dominated for the last 7 years or so. Is money their unfair advantage? Or is Hamilton just that good? It did make for a less attractive sport, if you already kind of know who will win.

Re: Rival weightlifter speaks out on transgender Hubbard's Olympic place

#295

Post by [deleted] »

ben_w wrote: post #251
ffggvv wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

yeah but it doesn’t make your body exactly like someone with different chromosomes than you that lived with that hormone set their entire life through puberty etc, and with a different bone structure and musculature

I believe this is one reason why some trans people are very keen for their hormonal therapy to begin before puberty.

[deleted]

Re: Rival weightlifter speaks out on transgender Hubbard's Olympic place

#296

Post by mssundaram »

trainsplanes wrote: post #51
asdfasgasdgasdg wrote: post #16

I feel like with this issue at some point we are bound to reach a breaking point. It's just a question of how far along things will go before we get there. People are more and more open about being transgender and there is more and more support for transgender individuals having the chance to live life as their correct gender. This is a great thing! However, it presents a huge problem for women's athletics, particula…

I won't risk saying this in real life or anywhere where my real identity is known, but I do wonder if the end result will be similar to what's common in many parts of Asia: a third/fourth gender. Instead of saying trans people are 100% identical to the gender they identify as, they'll be seen as something different. E.g., In Thailand there's the concept of kathoey (westerners refer to them as ladyboys). The Indian su…

Feminine beauty in Thailand allowed transgender people to have their own platform where they are able to challenge stereotypes and claim cultural recognition. Miss Tiffany's Universe is a beauty contest that is opened to all transgender women. Beginning in 1998, the pageant takes place every year in Pattaya, Thailand during May. With over 100 applicants, the pageant is considered to be one of the most popular transgender pageants in the world. Through beauty pageants, Thailand has been able to promote the country's cosmetic surgery industry, which has had a massive increase in medical tourism for sex reassignment surgery. According to the Miss Tiffany's Universe website, the live broadcast attracts record of fifteen million viewers. The winner of the pageant receives a tiara, sash, car, grand prize of 100,000 baht (US$3,000), equivalent to an annual wage for a Thai factory worker. The assistant manager director, Alisa Phanthusak, stated that the pageant wants kathoeys to be visible and to treat them as normal

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kathoey#Miss_Tiffany's_Univers...

Re: Rival weightlifter speaks out on transgender Hubbard's Olympic place

#297

Post by kuschku »

lenkite wrote: post #223
asdfasgasdgasdg wrote: post #16

I feel like with this issue at some point we are bound to reach a breaking point. It's just a question of how far along things will go before we get there. People are more and more open about being transgender and there is more and more support for transgender individuals having the chance to live life as their correct gender. This is a great thing! However, it presents a huge problem for women's athletics, particula…

Unless rules are made to enforce division based on sex and not gender, then it's just a matter of time until transgender athletes are the only winners in Women's events. Be prepared to see a lot of dropouts/boycotts by various nations in the Olympics. Eastern nations are not going to stand by silently. Some will shrug and directly enlist straight men in Women's events.

The olympic requirements are already having completely female hormone levels for 2 years.

In fact, the limit for testosterone is significantly lower than for cis women, being a significant disadvantage for trans athletes, which is why in all the decades trans athletes have been allowed, you haven't seen any.

Cis women with higher levels of testosterone, e.g. caster semenya, are already dominating the olympics, having natural hormone levels that'd be an immediate disqualification for any trans athlete.

Re: Rival weightlifter speaks out on transgender Hubbard's Olympic place

#298

Post by globular-toast »

jeremybms wrote: post #154

One possibility that could potentially work for certain sports, like weightlifting, where the competition is solely in terms of individual records, would be to do away with the existing division by weight and male/female and instead introduce a handicap model based on measured characteristics. For example, all players might be required to have blood testosterone levels recorded at regular intervals starting from a yo…

Well, once we figure out exactly what attributes make an athlete good at a given sport, we might as well skip the sport entirely. Just give the medal to the guy with the greatest genetic potential to be good at that sport.

Re: Rival weightlifter speaks out on transgender Hubbard's Olympic place

#299

Post by Thorrez »

skjfdoslifjeifj wrote: post #71
SilverRed wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is true but if we work with this line of logic, we should just remove the gender split in sports and make it purely a game for the best of the best. What this means is that most females will be removed from sport since they can't compete with the average male athlete. Society has spoken already and decided they want to see female athletes which is why many male only sports have started their own female only side…

> which is why many male only sports have started their own female only sides Most of the popular sport leagues don't have any rules disallowing female competitors. I'm sure the NHL, NBA, NFL, MLS, MLB, Premier League etc. would love to have a female player that was good enough because it would be a marketing dream.

A woman has played in the NHL

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manon_Rh%C3%A9aume

Re: Rival weightlifter speaks out on transgender Hubbard's Olympic place

#300

Post by wreath »

amarant wrote: post #249

So how about a third class/sex? We have male competitions, female competitions, why can't we have transgender competitions? Seems to me to be the simplest, fairest solution, given that hormone treatments might give a person an unfair advantage that we're trying to keep out of male and female sports, but that are inherently impossible to avoid in transgender sports.

There arent many trans people to compete to begin with, so this wouldnt make much sense in terms of organization and competition. would you watch a weightlifting tournament with only three people competing? This wouldnt get much media coverage to make up for costs even.
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