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Rival weightlifter speaks out on transgender Hubbard's Olympic place

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Re: Rival weightlifter speaks out on transgender Hubbard's Olympic place

#221

Post by eptcyka »

gugagore wrote: post #163
ffggvv wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

yeah but it doesn’t make your body exactly like someone with different chromosomes than you that lived with that hormone set their entire life through puberty etc, and with a different bone structure and musculature

that is correct, and to be fair, not contested by the parent comment. you might be hard-pressed to find two bodies each "exactly like" the other. The interesting questions here are not about exactly equal, but about equivalence classes of people, and in different contexts.

The argument is that even hrt isn't enough to transfer someone from one class to another.

Re: Rival weightlifter speaks out on transgender Hubbard's Olympic place

#222

Post by greyman »

ALittleLight wrote: post #132
hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #50

I thought Anna Vanbellinghen was very well said. It's not about questioning someone's identity, or their right to live openly. But this is about acknowledging physical reality. One thing I'd like to add is that this is, by definition, a hard problem . The fact is sex and gender exists on a continuum, even if 99% of the time it seems binary. Anyone who says that the "other side" in this situation (regardless of which…

In my opinion people often speak incoherently on this topic because they are trying to be politically correct. Vanbellinghen is asserting that Hubbard should not compete as a woman. Hubbard identifies as a woman. In what way is Vanbellinghen not questioning Hubbard's identity? It is as if "I am not questioning your identity" is a magic spell that must be chanted prior to doing exactly that so you don't get in trouble…

> In my opinion people often speak incoherently on this topic because they are trying to be politically correct.

Yes, they are trying to be politically correct, since you are basically forced to talk about it only in a politically correct way. Her statement reads to me like she is not allowed to tell directly what she thinks about it, so needs to describe it in a roundabout way. And that worries me more than the women's weightlifting itself.

Re: Rival weightlifter speaks out on transgender Hubbard's Olympic place

#223

Post by lenkite »

asdfasgasdgasdg wrote: post #16

I feel like with this issue at some point we are bound to reach a breaking point. It's just a question of how far along things will go before we get there. People are more and more open about being transgender and there is more and more support for transgender individuals having the chance to live life as their correct gender. This is a great thing! However, it presents a huge problem for women's athletics, particula…

Unless rules are made to enforce division based on sex and not gender, then it's just a matter of time until transgender athletes are the only winners in Women's events.

Be prepared to see a lot of dropouts/boycotts by various nations in the Olympics. Eastern nations are not going to stand by silently. Some will shrug and directly enlist straight men in Women's events.

Re: Rival weightlifter speaks out on transgender Hubbard's Olympic place

#224

Post by andreareina »

ryanobjc wrote: post #200
jp0d wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you'd asked me 10 years ago I probably would have said something disrespectful. I didn't know enough about trans-rights or lgbt rights. But over the years I've realised that they probably face a lot of injustice and indeed are marginalised in some societies. I've been working for a company that cares deeply about diversity and inclusion, which has helped me learn a lot. But, I still don't think it's fair for women…

> But, I still don't think it's fair for women that an individual who lived the prime of their life as a man, benefitting from all the testosterone and muscle mass Are you.... sure about this? Like how sure are you? What do you think you know? The human body changes surprisingly fast. Astronauts that stay in outer space for too long can't even walk when they return to earth. That "too long" is like... a year basicall…

Not just as strong, but there does remain an advantage. TFA goes into this:

> Vanbellinghen, 27, whose qualifying efforts were disrupted by injury, pointed out that the retained benefit of taking steroids, even years earlier, is widely known.

It's easier to regain lost muscle mass than it is to gain it in the first place.

Re: Rival weightlifter speaks out on transgender Hubbard's Olympic place

#225

Post by Jcowell »

vore wrote: post #176
leephillips wrote: post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would like to suggest that you resist the urge to police other’s use of language, especially when their use of terms is well established and reasonable. Whether you intend it or not, this is quite disrespectful.

How is calling transgender women "not women" "well established and reasonable"? Whether you intended to parrot what I said to be so snide, this is quite disrespectful.

Have to agree with this. It’s like someone calling me the N word. Arguable the word is “established” and probably reasonable to the sayer. Still hella disrespectful to me though.

Re: Rival weightlifter speaks out on transgender Hubbard's Olympic place

#226

Post by yerwhat01010 »

jl6 wrote: post #182
acituan wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The fact is sex and gender exists on a continuum, even if 99% of the time it seems binary. I was with you until this statement. Sex is a millions-of-years-old discrete variable; it depends on whether you could produce the bigger gamete (called egg) or the smaller one (sperm). Gender is a continuous variable with a strongly bimodal distribution.

This debate butts up against the limitations of language and it is necessary to take care to define terms. This definition will be more or less useful depending on what you are trying to communicate. “Sex” could be interpreted to mean a statement about chromosomes, in which case there are more than two variants. Or it could be interpreted to be a statement about reproductive potential, in which case the “two sexes” m…

> “Sex” could be interpreted to mean a statement about chromosomes.

Yes, it could - by people who don't know what the word "sex" means. Sex isn't about chromosomes, it's about gametes, and sex chromosome variants aren't separate sexes. For example, people with Klinefelter Syndrome (XXY) are male. This isn't hard.

https://colinwright.substack.com/p/sex-chromosome-variants-a...

Re: Rival weightlifter speaks out on transgender Hubbard's Olympic place

#227

Post by lenkite »

ako wrote: post #119
asdfasgasdgasdg wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Besides tennis, those are also not popular sports in the sense I'm discussing. And tennis is probably the least compelling of your examples.

Golf, skiing, snowboarding, windsurfing, kitesurfing, mtb-ing, street cycling, motorracing: all have thousands or even millions of participants, so can be considered popular, but require participants to spend thousands on equipment, travel, access to slopes, etc. If you can do any of these, you're considered rich.

In a world with ~8 billion, a sports audience of a few million is considered quite niche.

Re: Rival weightlifter speaks out on transgender Hubbard's Olympic place

#228

Post by Jcowell »

fruityrudy wrote: post #210

Imagine a giant athlete the size of Arnold Schwarzenegger at his peak decides to transition and has to match a testosterone level to compete. Lol. It’s ridiculous.

My question would be what would happen? Would he retain all of his strength or would the transition render him the strength we expect of a woman who also trained like he did. It seems weird to me that we say such things as if we definitely know the outcome. I must have missed a Science class where this was taught or maybe it’s coming sense? Is there even a paper study these results?

Re: Rival weightlifter speaks out on transgender Hubbard's Olympic place

#229

Post by [deleted] »

mastazi wrote: post #201
uniqueid wrote: post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

sports has everything to do with sex and nothing to do with gender Dividing by sex is a substitute for dividing by the things that really matter: height, weight, strength, bone density, etc. If sports grouped competitors by a combination of those attributes, it would solve a lot of issues, including debate over transgender athletes.

Most combat sports have weight classes so what you are suggesting is not completely unheard of.

[deleted]

Re: Rival weightlifter speaks out on transgender Hubbard's Olympic place

#230

Post by yerwhat01010 »

kazinator wrote: post #20

I think sports categories should be chromosome strings. "XX division", "XY world record". "XXY 400 m finals", "XYY long jump trials", ... Gender identity doesn't factor into it at all; the words "man", "woman" should not be used. Problem solved; you don't get to wedge yourself into competition with XX persons if you're XY.

Sex chromosome variants aren't separate sexes. You're male, and develop a male body producing male gametes, if you have a Y chromosome:

* X – Female

* XX – Female

* XXY – Male

* XY – Male

* XYY – Male

* XXXY – Male

https://colinwright.substack.com/p/sex-chromosome-variants-a...

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