Rival weightlifter speaks out on transgender Hubbard's Olympic place • Hacker News Board

Re: Rival weightlifter speaks out on transgender Hubbard's Olympic place

#171

Post by _tik_ » Wed, Jun 23, 2021, 6:48 AM UTC

trainsplanes wrote: post #51

asdfasgasdgasdg wrote: post #16

I feel like with this issue at some point we are bound to reach a breaking point. It's just a question of how far along things will go before we get there. People are more and more open about being transgender and there is more and more support for transgender individuals having the chance to live life as their correct gender. This is a great thing! However, it presents a huge problem for women's athletics, particula…

I won't risk saying this in real life or anywhere where my real identity is known, but I do wonder if the end result will be similar to what's common in many parts of Asia: a third/fourth gender. Instead of saying trans people are 100% identical to the gender they identify as, they'll be seen as something different. E.g., In Thailand there's the concept of kathoey (westerners refer to them as ladyboys). The Indian su…

Sad to say third/fourth gender is mostly still unacceptable in most Asian countries. Only acceptable in small part of Asians. Third/fourth gender is more acceptable in ancient Asia though. In Thailand Kathoy mostly compete in Men Category.

Re: Rival weightlifter speaks out on transgender Hubbard's Olympic place

#172

Post by syngrog66 » Wed, Jun 23, 2021, 6:49 AM UTC

the most elegant and fair solution to problems like this is to eliminate all gender distinctions in sports and collapse all leagues, competitions and record categories into a unified human category. let the best human win, regardless of their birth gender, sex preference, or sex organs at moment. yes, there will be certain sports or events that will tend to favor male. but there will be some that favor female. let the chips fall where they may. it will still be limited to humans, regardless. its not like human athletes will have to worry how they will compete in the Olympics in swimming against dolphins or sharks. Humans wont have to compete in sprinting against cheetahs or gazelles. wrestling against gorillas, etc.

Re: Rival weightlifter speaks out on transgender Hubbard's Olympic place

#173

Post by chitowneats » Wed, Jun 23, 2021, 6:53 AM UTC

vore wrote: post #170

chitowneats wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have no issue with how they choose to self identify. I accept trans-identifying individuals and I will use whichever pronouns they ask of me. What I have an issue with is this type of behavior where they turn things upside down without any care for others. In this case, they're stealing glory from and seriously hampering the careers of lifelong female athletes. Imagine lifting since you were a teenage girl, and som…

I apologize for misunderstanding your initial point: couching the pro-trans movement as an "ideology" had read to me as a dismissal of the pro-trans movement at large and if that is not your intent then I retract my initial comment. That said, I don't really agree with this clarification either: no trans woman is setting out to have gender reassignment to bully their way into competing against women who were lifting…

I respectfully disagree. Hubbard has no business in this competition. It's selfish for her to do this. She is "johnny come lately" to women's weightlifting and has several decades of male puberty under her belt. These photos are actually tragic to look at.

If we're talking about someone who transitions in their teens and has no other options for sport in their adolescence, I would agree that's a much more difficult and ambiguous situation.

Re: Rival weightlifter speaks out on transgender Hubbard's Olympic place

#174

Post by leephillips » Wed, Jun 23, 2021, 6:53 AM UTC

vore wrote: post #153

tiahura wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s not a quirk that makes it unfair for them to compete in women’s sports, it’s the fact that they’re not women. If I’m a 240lb judoka, it would be unfair for me to compete in the 160lb weight class just because I feel thin on the inside.

First of all, I suggest you refrain from calling trans women "not women" – this is, whether you intend it to be or not, quite disrespectful. You can talk about the biological implications of being transgender without erasing their identities like that. Second of all, there are physical changes from hormone replacement therapy. associated with transitioning. This is absolutely not "240lb judoka feeling thin on the ins…

I would like to suggest that you resist the urge to police other’s use of language, especially when their use of terms is well established and reasonable. Whether you intend it or not, this is quite disrespectful.

Re: Rival weightlifter speaks out on transgender Hubbard's Olympic place

#175

Post by jp0d » Wed, Jun 23, 2021, 6:54 AM UTC

jp0d wrote: post #113

This is a very controversial topic. Many have spoken about it at length. I personally believe it's not fair for women in athletics. There are several excellent suggestions/solutions discussed on this thread. I feel like there needs to be another category which would include people who're naturally male/female/others and/or identify as something/someone else. And keep the existing male and female categories as they ar…

If you'd asked me 10 years ago I probably would have said something disrespectful. I didn't know enough about trans-rights or lgbt rights. But over the years I've realised that they probably face a lot of injustice and indeed are marginalised in some societies. I've been working for a company that cares deeply about diversity and inclusion, which has helped me learn a lot. But, I still don't think it's fair for women that an individual who lived the prime of their life as a man, benefitting from all the testosterone and muscle mass and then identifying as a woman to beat other women. I think there should be a line. Of course there should be no discrimination against anyone for their race/gender/beliefs etc. But there is a reason why weight categories and gender exist in boxing and martial arts. It's just absurd that we've to even discuss this.

Re: Rival weightlifter speaks out on transgender Hubbard's Olympic place

#176

Post by vore » Wed, Jun 23, 2021, 6:55 AM UTC

leephillips wrote: post #174

vore wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

First of all, I suggest you refrain from calling trans women "not women" – this is, whether you intend it to be or not, quite disrespectful. You can talk about the biological implications of being transgender without erasing their identities like that. Second of all, there are physical changes from hormone replacement therapy. associated with transitioning. This is absolutely not "240lb judoka feeling thin on the ins…

I would like to suggest that you resist the urge to police other’s use of language, especially when their use of terms is well established and reasonable. Whether you intend it or not, this is quite disrespectful.

How is calling transgender women "not women" "well established and reasonable"? Whether you intended to parrot what I said to be so snide, this is quite disrespectful.

Re: Rival weightlifter speaks out on transgender Hubbard's Olympic place

#177

Post by remarkEon » Wed, Jun 23, 2021, 6:57 AM UTC

vore wrote: post #153

tiahura wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s not a quirk that makes it unfair for them to compete in women’s sports, it’s the fact that they’re not women. If I’m a 240lb judoka, it would be unfair for me to compete in the 160lb weight class just because I feel thin on the inside.

First of all, I suggest you refrain from calling trans women "not women" – this is, whether you intend it to be or not, quite disrespectful. You can talk about the biological implications of being transgender without erasing their identities like that. Second of all, there are physical changes from hormone replacement therapy. associated with transitioning. This is absolutely not "240lb judoka feeling thin on the ins…

>Second of all, there are physical changes from hormone replacement therapy. associated with transitioning. This is absolutely not "240lb judoka feeling thin on the inside" and not absurdly cut and dry like you suggest.

These drugs do not "erase" the biological reality of sex differences.

Re: Rival weightlifter speaks out on transgender Hubbard's Olympic place

#178

Post by vore » Wed, Jun 23, 2021, 6:59 AM UTC

remarkEon wrote: post #177

vore wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

First of all, I suggest you refrain from calling trans women "not women" – this is, whether you intend it to be or not, quite disrespectful. You can talk about the biological implications of being transgender without erasing their identities like that. Second of all, there are physical changes from hormone replacement therapy. associated with transitioning. This is absolutely not "240lb judoka feeling thin on the ins…

>Second of all, there are physical changes from hormone replacement therapy. associated with transitioning. This is absolutely not "240lb judoka feeling thin on the inside" and not absurdly cut and dry like you suggest. These drugs do not "erase" the biological reality of sex differences.

I'm not arguing there is no biological difference – there absolutely is. I am arguing that there are different lines people can draw and that the example given is absurd and reductive of these considerations.

Re: Rival weightlifter speaks out on transgender Hubbard's Olympic place

#179

Post by Erwin » Wed, Jun 23, 2021, 6:59 AM UTC

vmception wrote: post #160

nimbleal wrote: post #126

I may be a few years behind on terminology (?) but surely sports has everything to do with sex and nothing to do with gender? No one cares what pronouns an athlete uses, how they dress, what roles and behaviours society traditionally assigns/expects of them and how they respond to those traditions. They care entirely about biological advantages and disadvantages. So the division is based on — again unsure of the term…

basically what happens in online spaces is that regional separate evolution of trans terms clash for example, in American English, the trans community has centered on a separation between sex and gender In commonwealth English, that specific separation in the lexicon hasn't reached consensus even within the trans community, let alone in a broader colloquialism from people wanting to understand and people actively res…

Current UK situation seems to be that being "Gender Critical" is a protected belief, based on the ruling case of a case where a tax expert lost her job for tweeting about how men cannot just change into women: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maya_Forstater_v_Centre_for_Gl...

Re: Rival weightlifter speaks out on transgender Hubbard's Olympic place

#180

Post by hypnoscripto » Wed, Jun 23, 2021, 6:59 AM UTC

ffggvv wrote: post #156

hypnoscripto wrote: post #92

If this is an issue for all MTF weightlifters, would it be reasonable to disqualify someone only if they had previously competed at the same level as a male?

pretty sure if you take any random 250lb male that plays football or something they could be the number one female lifter in the world if they identify as a female for an hour. so not sure if that disqualification would matter

I don't think that's really relevant. In no world are people without medical treatment going to be considered, and no one is going to go through that just to win a medal.