Rival weightlifter speaks out on transgender Hubbard's Olympic place • Hacker News Board

Re: Rival weightlifter speaks out on transgender Hubbard's Olympic place

#111

Post by asdfasgasdgasdg » Wed, Jun 23, 2021, 5:27 AM UTC

woodruffw wrote: post #99

asdfasgasdgasdg wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's true, but there are enormous differences between those other categories compared to sexuality! For one thing, we do not know exactly which genes code for each of these traits yet. And for another thing, the genes coding, for example, fast twitch muscles are not generally part of someone's identity the way gender is. I don't think the presence of those genes nor their uneven distribution does anything to defuse…

> Nit-picking your other points: there are not really any popular rich-people-only sports any more, except perhaps auto racing. I can assure you, from personal experience, that rowing, cycling, tennis, and lacrosse are overwhelmingly wealthy sports. You don’t have to pass a credit check to play them, but they are absolutely a class apart (both economically and racially) versus sports like baseball and basketball.

Besides tennis, those are also not popular sports in the sense I'm discussing. And tennis is probably the least compelling of your examples.

Re: Rival weightlifter speaks out on transgender Hubbard's Olympic place

#112

Post by djrogers » Wed, Jun 23, 2021, 5:29 AM UTC

SilverRed wrote: post #70

devit wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because the fittest people with an expressed SRY gene (aka "biologically male") are generally 10-15% better at sports than those without it (aka "biologically female") so if you allow SRY-expressing MtF transgender people to compete in the female category against non-SRY cisgender female people (rather than only letting them competing in the male category), and there are enough of them at top levels, no cisgender wom…

>incentivizes male athletes that can't win medals but are close to take hormone replacement theory solely so they can compete This might seem absurd but when you consider that they already go to extreme lengths to sneak in highly dangerous and life altering drugs just to win, I can see it happening.

Does it seem absurd when you consider that some totalitarian regimes pluck 4 year olds from their families and send them to gymnastics schools, all for the chance to get an extra gold medal?

Re: Rival weightlifter speaks out on transgender Hubbard's Olympic place

#113

Post by jp0d » Wed, Jun 23, 2021, 5:30 AM UTC

This is a very controversial topic. Many have spoken about it at length. I personally believe it's not fair for women in athletics. There are several excellent suggestions/solutions discussed on this thread. I feel like there needs to be another category which would include people who're naturally male/female/others and/or identify as something/someone else. And keep the existing male and female categories as they are. And of course it goes without saying that I've written this with all due respect to such individuals and I bear no malice towards anyone.

Re: Rival weightlifter speaks out on transgender Hubbard's Olympic place

#114

Post by rantwasp » Wed, Jun 23, 2021, 5:31 AM UTC

woodruffw wrote: post #107

rantwasp wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

here is a thought experiment for you: no more genders in sports. at all. everyone competes under the same rules. we bother with quirks like gender? i mean, we want equality right? everyone competes under the same rules /s

Your snideness is noted, but this is precisely the stoic mindset: athleticism is most virtuously practiced when we only compare current selves to our best possible versions of ourselves. We can’t change anything about how others are; we can only better ourselves. Telling transwomen that they can’t perform athletic excellence on their own terms is myopic and inconsistent with our own praise for factors outside of our…

nah. if you’re working on yourself that’s fine. if you’re working a lifetime to be the best at something only to be cheated out of it, we’re talking about something else.

to nail this point home: if you are training to ride a bike and you’re the best in the world at it and after that someone comes along with an electric bike and wants to “compete” with you you’re gonna have a problem. nothing wrong if everyone has an electric one and the sport involves electric bikes. something is wrong if someone brings an electric bike and claims the bike is the same as the others.

Re: Rival weightlifter speaks out on transgender Hubbard's Olympic place

#115

Post by djrogers » Wed, Jun 23, 2021, 5:31 AM UTC

Theory5 wrote: post #25

JoeyBananas wrote: post #18

What is the argument in favor of allowing transgenders to compete in female sports? Does anyone actually defend this decision?

Why wouldn't people support transgendered people able to be the gender they wish and being able to do so in all possible aspects? Be they transwomen wanting to play female sports, or transmen wanting to play male sports (which you oddly leave out of your question).

> or transmen wanting to play male sports (which you oddly leave out of your question).

It’s not odd, because it just hasn’t come up as an issue. In fact most pro sports leagues are not men-only. If a woman or f2m transgender could make the cut on an NFL team, there are no rules against it.

Re: Rival weightlifter speaks out on transgender Hubbard's Olympic place

#116

Post by djrogers » Wed, Jun 23, 2021, 5:33 AM UTC

Theory5 wrote: post #21

I don't know the history of all sports, but the few tidbits I know all point to sex/gender separation as being initially based on beliefs that women were inferior to men. From physical sports to mental ones like chess, sex separation was due to women not being seen as equal to men. I think its time to do away with separations on sex, and go with ones based on ability and size. Boxing does it with weight classes, why…

I’m not aware of a professional sports league in the US that excludes women as a matter of rules or policy - they just don’t have the physical makeup to play at that level. That’s ok, neither do you or I.

Re: Rival weightlifter speaks out on transgender Hubbard's Olympic place

#117

Post by moeris » Wed, Jun 23, 2021, 5:37 AM UTC

Mediterraneo10 wrote: post #93

trainsplanes wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I won't risk saying this in real life or anywhere where my real identity is known, but I do wonder if the end result will be similar to what's common in many parts of Asia: a third/fourth gender. Instead of saying trans people are 100% identical to the gender they identify as, they'll be seen as something different. E.g., In Thailand there's the concept of kathoey (westerners refer to them as ladyboys). The Indian su…

It is common to hear a transwoman claim (indeed, even occasionally here on HN) that anything other than recognizing them as equal to ciswomen is an act of violence and prejudice against them, and at worst, they utter some invective about “TERFs”. So, suggesting the recognition of a new gender is unlikely to satisfy at least those strident individuals.

Referring to trans people as "a transgender" is rude. If your other statements are as ill informed and inconsiderate, then it's no wonder your conversations with the trans community have been confrontational.

Re: Rival weightlifter speaks out on transgender Hubbard's Olympic place

#118

Post by meowkit » Wed, Jun 23, 2021, 5:41 AM UTC

woodruffw wrote: post #107

rantwasp wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

here is a thought experiment for you: no more genders in sports. at all. everyone competes under the same rules. we bother with quirks like gender? i mean, we want equality right? everyone competes under the same rules /s

Your snideness is noted, but this is precisely the stoic mindset: athleticism is most virtuously practiced when we only compare current selves to our best possible versions of ourselves. We can’t change anything about how others are; we can only better ourselves. Telling transwomen that they can’t perform athletic excellence on their own terms is myopic and inconsistent with our own praise for factors outside of our…

We are talking about competition between others. You have worry about yourself compared to other people - that's the whole point.

We are not arguing the virtues of athleticism I don't understand why you wrote that.

Re: Rival weightlifter speaks out on transgender Hubbard's Olympic place

#119

Post by ako » Wed, Jun 23, 2021, 5:41 AM UTC

asdfasgasdgasdg wrote: post #111

woodruffw wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Nit-picking your other points: there are not really any popular rich-people-only sports any more, except perhaps auto racing. I can assure you, from personal experience, that rowing, cycling, tennis, and lacrosse are overwhelmingly wealthy sports. You don’t have to pass a credit check to play them, but they are absolutely a class apart (both economically and racially) versus sports like baseball and basketball.

Besides tennis, those are also not popular sports in the sense I'm discussing. And tennis is probably the least compelling of your examples.

Golf, skiing, snowboarding, windsurfing, kitesurfing, mtb-ing, street cycling, motorracing: all have thousands or even millions of participants, so can be considered popular, but require participants to spend thousands on equipment, travel, access to slopes, etc. If you can do any of these, you're considered rich.

Re: Rival weightlifter speaks out on transgender Hubbard's Olympic place

#120

Post by slg » Wed, Jun 23, 2021, 5:43 AM UTC

throw0101a wrote: post #56

jml7c5 wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At its very core, the exclusion is seen as a form of "well you're not really a woman". I could write more on the arguments both sides present, but that's the crux of it.

> At its very core, the exclusion is seen as a form of "well you're not really a woman". For the supporters of trans-women being women, is there a canonical / generally accepted list of criteria which would classify people "objectively" as a woman? If there is such a thing as a group of people that can be called "women", how would membership in that group be established? I.e., what really is a woman?

If someone considers themselves a woman, they are a woman. It doesn't have to be any more complicated than that for 99% of life. I can understand some objections in a very limited number of contexts and sports is one of those contexts, but otherwise just allow people to choose where they fall on the gender spectrum.