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What is ranked-choice voting and why is New York using it?

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Re: What is ranked-choice voting and why is New York using it?

#151

Worth considering the argument against ranked-choice voting: https://www.wsj.com/articles/ranked-choice-voting-is-second-...

Can you summarize or provide a non-paywall link? It’s frustrating that they claim RCV is second best but (presumably) put what they argue is best below the fold.

https://archive.is/2020.11.04-041023/https://www.wsj.com/art...

The WSJ editorial board’s argument is very weak, and seems very partisan. They cherry picked a few very strange, rare scenarios that would still not be any different with the current first past the post system.

Ranking things in order of preference is something we do all the time. “They’re out of my favorite fruit, but I’ll get this other one instead.” “You don’t have that chair in this color? Okay, I’ll take that other color.” etc

The WSJ editorial board says, “Major parties could be weakened to the benefit of more extreme candidates.” That already happens with first past the post. The 2016 GOP primary season for President is an example of this: the eventual GOP candidate did not win 50% of the vote in the majority of 2016 primaries. Instead, more GOP voters wanted a more moderate candidate, but the many moderate candidates split the vote. Thankfully the WSJ article points this out, but totally undersells it, and doesn’t make a strong case to at least use it in those situations.

RCV reduces the chances of an extreme point of view getting elected, because they have to be able to get approval from at least 50% of everyone voting, rather than relying on their opponents to split the vote.

Get more people running, so we have more options to vote for, and we can express more accurately who and what we support. RCV, or one of the many other alternatives to FPTP, is the best shot at doing this, and in my opinion one of the few ways to truly improve the US’s democracy without a bunch of massive changes that are even less popular with politicians (limiting donations, lobbying, etc).

Re: What is ranked-choice voting and why is New York using it?

#152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In this US, you would rarely need to do any additional research. There are almost always only 2 choices - the Democratic candidate and the Republican candidate. Anyone voting for another candidate is simply saying that's who they /REALLY/ wish would win, but most people aren't willing to throw their vote in the garbage to virtue signal. That 3rd party candidate almost never has a chance at winning. Neither does the a…

If this achieves widespread in the US I could see regional libertarian and green candidates picking up spots in certain areas in US.

Do you have something US-specific to indicate that this would be the case? Neither empirics nor theory support your claim. https://rangevoting.org/TarrIrvSumm.html

Re: What is ranked-choice voting and why is New York using it?

#153
post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Limiting yourself to the likely candidates requires a level of awareness around polling - that information is practically forced down our throats since voting in America pretty much requires it, but polling information (what other people think of the candidate) isn't an important piece of information for the voter - it's their opinion the system ideally wants them to express. RCV is, at a maximum, equally as complica…

Right, but you can argue ranking N items takes more thought thank picking 1. I like the "interoperable" way, just making choices 2 and onward optional.

Given the wording in the article I'm almost certain that underfilling the selection wouldn't result in a spoiled ballot. People can continue to just pick their favorite dude and go one with their lives. From a survey mentioned in the article apparently only a quarter of potential voters choose to only make a single choice[1].

1. http://maristpoll.marist.edu/wp-content/uploads/2021/06/WNBC...

Re: What is ranked-choice voting and why is New York using it?

#154
post #57

I really hate that Instant Runoff Voting, which is almost literally the worst possible voting method with ranked choice ballots, has somehow gotten the name “Ranked Choice Voting” stuck to it. It’s like if “Democratic Elections” became a specific name for Plurality voting.

Why is Instant Runoff Voting the worst possible voting method?

A succinct version (others have linked more detailed, largely outcome-oriented analyses, which are also valid and important) is that, of seriously-considered ranked-ballots methods, it both throws out the most information from the ballots and uses information rather unequally across ballots, attempting to simulate FPTP elections with narrower candidate pools until you get a majority winner.

Re: What is ranked-choice voting and why is New York using it?

#155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you summarize or provide a non-paywall link? It’s frustrating that they claim RCV is second best but (presumably) put what they argue is best below the fold.

Spoiler alert: they don't argue what's best. Very weak evidence offered but the motivation behind the article was near the top. "They also appeal to more ideological voters—especially on the left—by arguing that they can express their views with more precision in a ranked-choice system."

As I'm guessing you know (but for the benefit of others), although the WSJ news section is rated quite middle of the road, their editorial board is rated as right-leaning as "The American Conservative", "Newsmax," and Fox News online news.

https://www.allsides.com/blog/new-allsides-media-bias-chart-...

Re: What is ranked-choice voting and why is New York using it?

#156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Worth noting Australia is still generally a 2-party system in the lower house (1 representative each area) but less so in the senate (where each state elects the top 12 senators). Australians still look at envy at the New Zealand and German systems of Mixed Member Proportional representation (MMP) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mixed-member_proportional_re...

We here in NZ would also like some kind of ranked choice in conjunction with MMP - as it stands, people are still reluctant to vote for smaller parties that may not reach the 5% vote threshold required. Edit: I may have confused RCV with STV. Regardless, it would be nice to know that if my first option didn't make it into Parliament that I could prefer a second party, and so on.

As the wiki article for STV helpfully states, "Another name for STV is multi-winner ranked-choice voting". Also, "Instant runoff voting (IRV) is the single-winner analogue of STV".

So ranked choice voting is a super-set with many flavours within.

Re: What is ranked-choice voting and why is New York using it?

#157

I don't like instant runoff. It seems like it systematically rejects compromise, and I think finding the proper compromise is an important goal of a voting system. For instance, imagine a sectarian society split roughly equally between 3 religions, with 4 candidates running. The first three push theocracy favoring their respective religion, while the fourth favors tolerance and secular government. If, statistically,…

Ranked choice voting does not throw away the fourth candidate, assuming people are voting for the secular person as 2nd in your example.

Most RCV systems in practice use IRV (including, IIUC, the New York system under discussion), and I believe I was correct in what I attributed to IRV vs RCV more generally.

Re: What is ranked-choice voting and why is New York using it?

#158

A lot of nitpicking here, as is typical on HN, but the Australian experience is instructive. We can vote for the Greens without "throwing our left-of-centre" vote away and still preferring Labor to Liberal. Ranking only up to 5 is reasonable - if you want the simplicity of the old system, and don't want to research beyond 3 candidates, don't! I can't see the weird complaining about having to learn more about candidat…

In this US, you would rarely need to do any additional research. There are almost always only 2 choices - the Democratic candidate and the Republican candidate. Anyone voting for another candidate is simply saying that's who they /REALLY/ wish would win, but most people aren't willing to throw their vote in the garbage to virtue signal. That 3rd party candidate almost never has a chance at winning. Neither does the a…

What you say is true if general elections in the US, but often not the primary elections where a party determines who its candidate will be. At that stage it's pretty common to have a wider field of candidates.

Also, ranking could change the US dynamic of only have 2 choices. Being able to vote 3rd party and then then choose someone from one of the two main parties might drive a lot more people to vote 3rd party because they wouldn't feel it's hurting the chance of having a candidate that represents at least some of their views. This may not change national elections much, but for Senate, and especially House members it could make a difference. Enough to force more coalitions and compromise between parties instead of winner take all. Sure, that outcome isn't guaranteed, but it seems more likely to produce that sort of result than what we have now.

Re: What is ranked-choice voting and why is New York using it?

#159
post #97

I don't like instant runoff. It seems like it systematically rejects compromise, and I think finding the proper compromise is an important goal of a voting system. For instance, imagine a sectarian society split roughly equally between 3 religions, with 4 candidates running. The first three push theocracy favoring their respective religion, while the fourth favors tolerance and secular government. If, statistically,…

That's true - but approaches that identify those best compromises get mathematically more and more complex as the system gains fidelity. We shouldn't let the perfect be the enemy of the good. If a place wants to implement another voting system, I'd be interested to see how it plays out, and if the voters see the winner with legitimacy. IRV is relatively simple and candidates in NY are still attacking it because of th…

You don't get a lot of chances to change the voting system. Tacoma, WA changed to IRV for a while, but it didn't make any difference in who got elected, then they threw it out a few years later. Good luck getting a better system in place now.

Re: What is ranked-choice voting and why is New York using it?

#160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you summarize or provide a non-paywall link? It’s frustrating that they claim RCV is second best but (presumably) put what they argue is best below the fold.

main points are 1. may decrease voter turnout by 5-6% 2. not as obviously fair as traditional voting 3. increases existing divides I personally think none of them are good enough points, they can all be dealt with. And 3 just means you can vote for who you like best, not just the ones in power.

Yeah, the idea of "increases existing divides" is extremely bad faith.

It lets similar candidates make a case for their small differences, but allows: * voters to not waste their vote on one of 10 different similar candidates, hoping they picked the one with the most backing so they don't get a split vote * more than just two or three candidates to run and have a reasonable chance of winning

The more people running, the better. Sure, there's some level where it gets a little over the top, but there are safeguards in place for that like minimum number of signatures from verified residents of a city/county/state, so there's currently extremely little risk of RCV being enacted and 100 candidates showing up on ballots.

And even if that did happen, so what? Look up a few of the candidates and pick the one that seems to represent you best.

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