Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Did Windows 10 slow down with each feature update?

ntdotdev.wordpress.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

291–300 of 432 posts

Re: Did Windows 10 slow down with each feature update?

#291

Post by Wowfunhappy »

freeone3000 wrote: post #284
Wowfunhappy wrote: post #249

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But that's also a billion+ users with much slower computers! So you need to compare the harm on both sides. And then MS could add a switch in Settings for anyone who is concerned. (I realize not many people would find it, but it seems important for the option to be accessible, without digging into the registry or some such.)

Think of the average windows user. This person uses Chrome because they got a popup when they went to Gmail. The shortcut for candy crush is still in their start menu because it doesn't bother anything. I am not being insulting -- this is the average, median windows user. This is the person for whom Windows Home is designed. There is ZERO CHANCE that this user knows what a "speculative execution mitigation" is. There…

Yes, so Microsoft has to make the decision for them. I'm not sure "we're going to make your computer 30% slower because there's a 0.0001% chance someone could steal your password" is the right decision.

(These numbers are completely made up. Any decision would depend on getting the right numbers, but this appears to be easier said than done. I've seen very different estimates.)

Re: Did Windows 10 slow down with each feature update?

#292

Post by judge2020 »

brudgers wrote: post #68

Some remarks: I used Hyper-V as the hypervisor of choice That is not how most end user installations are configured (aka, not as a virtual machine). 32GB fixed disk for each build. That is much much less than the typical Windows 10 hardware. the fast boot feature has been disabled for the purposes of this measurement. That is not the default and not reflective of most installations.

> That is not how most end user installations are configured (aka, not as a virtual machine).

IIRC if virtualization is turned on in BIOS, the host Windows itself effectively runs as a hypervisor-backed machine. I still think the tests aren't really representative, though.

Re: Did Windows 10 slow down with each feature update?

#293

Post by chii »

zargon wrote: post #279
koheripbal wrote: post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What I find most disappointing is that even processors manufactured TODAY contain these flaws and have performance hits put into the firmware. This issue is so fundamental to how CPU caches work, that there really is not a true performance-neutral fix.

An alternative interpretation is that there are no current "performance hits", just the legitimate performance is now (better) known. Those former "performance gains" were cheated, akin to Volkswagen emissions tests. Edit: it was Volkswagen not Volvo.

> former "performance gains" were cheated

why would cache performance be considered a cheat?

Re: Did Windows 10 slow down with each feature update?

#294

Post by danielheath »

chii wrote: post #293
zargon wrote: post #279

Earlier quoted context omitted.

An alternative interpretation is that there are no current "performance hits", just the legitimate performance is now (better) known. Those former "performance gains" were cheated, akin to Volkswagen emissions tests. Edit: it was Volkswagen not Volvo.

> former "performance gains" were cheated why would cache performance be considered a cheat?

Because it makes several of the isolation features the processor ships with useless, without documenting it?

Re: Did Windows 10 slow down with each feature update?

#295

Post by cookiengineer »

EvanAnderson wrote: post #128
ergot_vacation wrote: post #81

Over the past decade, software updates in general have mostly become another form of malware, as software makers care more about extracting money from their users or adding pointless shiny features than actually making their software fast, stable, or better able to serve the user. As a result, my default policy now is "If it ain't broke, NEVER fix it." Install, then disable all updates, forcibly if necessary. On Wind…

I used to find new technology to be exciting. Now, new technology (speaking about more than just software here-- appliances, cars, etc) causes me to instinctively respond with "What features, capabilities, ownership models, etc, are being taken away from me with this new thing?" I assume it's a function of my getting older (44), to a large extent. It can't all be about me getting older, though. I can't be alone in th…

Eversince Windows 10 came out I don't think there'll be a back-to-generalized-efficiency-tool era for the masses.

At some point enterprise-grade companies that produce software get inefficient in terms of constant costs. They somehow need to make enough money for all the clutter on top that doesn't have anything to do with development/design of the product itself.

So, as long as a software producing company is a public company with shareholders and the market expansion isn't possible anymore...things necessarily _have_ to get crappier for the end users so that the company can keep producing more money out of nothing.

You can see that everywhere in enterprise level software companies. Microsoft, SAP, DATEV, just to name a few where they incrementally didn't make the software better - but instead artificially created lock-ins for their endusers so they aren't able to switch in future. Even when you argue that those companies have many market segments they deliver to, I'd go as far as adding all custom OEM Android apps to that list, as well as smart cameras, smart TVs, everything related to IoT etc.

Most of the smart devices are about removing control from the users and forcing them to pay more money for the same featureset later, gradually, without them noticing in the beginning.

Now with Google FLoC we basically will have the same thing applied to the web, and it won't turn back to the good old "just block cookies" ways. Google will persist in tracking everybody, and they got the leverage to do so.

Re: Did Windows 10 slow down with each feature update?

#296

Post by zargon »

motardo wrote: post #290
zargon wrote: post #279

Earlier quoted context omitted.

An alternative interpretation is that there are no current "performance hits", just the legitimate performance is now (better) known. Those former "performance gains" were cheated, akin to Volkswagen emissions tests. Edit: it was Volkswagen not Volvo.

For the record, it was Volkswagen that cheated the emissions test, not Volvo

Thanks! I wasn't sure I remembered correctly but didn't immediately see the answer in a quick google.

Re: Did Windows 10 slow down with each feature update?

#297

Post by freeone3000 »

Wowfunhappy wrote: post #291
freeone3000 wrote: post #284

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Think of the average windows user. This person uses Chrome because they got a popup when they went to Gmail. The shortcut for candy crush is still in their start menu because it doesn't bother anything. I am not being insulting -- this is the average, median windows user. This is the person for whom Windows Home is designed. There is ZERO CHANCE that this user knows what a "speculative execution mitigation" is. There…

Yes, so Microsoft has to make the decision for them. I'm not sure "we're going to make your computer 30% slower because there's a 0.0001% chance someone could steal your password" is the right decision. (These numbers are completely made up. Any decision would depend on getting the right numbers, but this appears to be easier said than done. I've seen very different estimates.)

An unpatched data exfil against the OS with the largest install base in the world? It doesn't matter it's a byte at a time, cryptominers have done more with less. The question isn't if, the question is who and how many. The fallout from SMB2 is still ongoing, and it was patched 10 years ago. The idea of not patching EVER opens up harms for the next twenty years for everyone.

Re: Did Windows 10 slow down with each feature update?

#298

Post by vczf »

jiggawatts wrote: post #252
scrps wrote: post #217

This is purely speculation and observation but I had to disable all the anti-telemetry hacks on my (aging) W10 gaming desktop and I noticed a marked increase in latency in everything from opening a folder to launching simple applications. Once I re-enabled all the patches the latency seem to vanish. I have no data or hard evidence to back any of this up so take it with a large grain of salt.

What's the fastest way to configure this?

https://www.oo-software.com/en/shutup10

Re: Did Windows 10 slow down with each feature update?

#299

Post by rincebrain »

zargon wrote: post #289
johncolanduoni wrote: post #283

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s news to me that Intel, AMD, and various ARM licensees all knew about these problems (and vague “the ~truth~ side channels are out there” handwaves that were made for many years don’t count) when the requisite speculation changes were made 20 years ago and left them in anyway. And that still isn’t quite an equivalence to the Volvo emission tests, since the processors don’t try to detect if you’re testing them and…

It's my understanding that the bulk of the vulnerabilities in question are not present to near the degree on AMD and ARM. If AMD and ARM could do things mostly properly, why couldn't Intel?

There are a number of the vulnerabilities that affect other platforms than Intel x86 (including some POWER and ARM), though you're correct, a good amount of those disclosed are specific to Intel. But there has also been at least one that was AMD specific, too.[1]

I hypothesize it could have come down to "well, we made this type of decision this way before, and the world didn't fall down, so we can probably make it that way again, right?" Since these aren't formally proven systems, to some extent deciding whether an optimization is safe is going to be a judgment call - and if you go for "well, if this assumption is false, we're already doomed because we did X elsewhere...", the results could look like this.

Or maybe not, I've never worked for a chip design house.

[1] - https://mlq.me/download/takeaway.pdf

Re: Did Windows 10 slow down with each feature update?

#300

Post by nitrogen »

zargon wrote: post #296
motardo wrote: post #290

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For the record, it was Volkswagen that cheated the emissions test, not Volvo

Thanks! I wasn't sure I remembered correctly but didn't immediately see the answer in a quick google.

didn't immediately see the answer in a quick google.

Whether happening organically or through the magic of reputation management, that's pretty alarming, actually. Give it another few years and nobody will even remember.

Post reply on HN