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What if plants were animals like any other?

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Re: What if plants were animals like any other?

#51

Post by dane-pgp »

matz1 wrote: post #30
ping_pong wrote: post #7

If you spend enough time watching nature videos like I do, you will notice that the vast majority of animals are eaten alive by their predators. It's slow, and exceedingly painful and it is ubiquitous. So even if plants were conscious, I honestly don't care. A bear would eat me alive in the most painful way possible and they wouldn't even think a second about it. Neither will I.

I don't care either, I draw the line between human and non-human. Anything you do on non-human is fair game to me. The only reason I may care about animal suffering is because the other human can get angry can cause me trouble.

> Anything you do on non-human is fair game to me.

It might be wise to moderate that position by also objecting to people taking pleasure in seeing/causing the suffering of animals. You may not care about the experience of those animals, but you should still care what effect it has on the human who indulges that side of themselves.

Similarly you should also care that humans are not excessively exposed to scenes of "necessary" animal suffering, whether that be abattoir workers or veterinarians. Having psychological counselling mandated and freely available for these professions would be an ethical improvement for the world even if it didn't reduce the amount of animal suffering at all.

Re: What if plants were animals like any other?

#52

Post by silicon2401 »

neom wrote: post #5
didibus wrote: post #4

This seems like a rabbit whole, at some point there's no objective ethics, you pick your line. Are you going to include bacteria, yeast, common viruses, dust mites, there's plenty to choose from. I think one thing that seems relevant to humans, is we seem to be bothered only once we can relate to the other being in a more explicit way. This is true even between our peers. Maybe as we understand more and more of other…

Jainism takes this pretty far, I've been learning a bit about it recently and it's pretty interesting as far as ancient religions go: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jainism Particularly good if you're interested in diving in more: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c33XPyljUiw

Thanks for sharing, I'm in the same boat. I love the logical consistency of Jainism, as I've always found vegans drawing the line at animals but not plants to be a bit arbitrary. Setting the goal as avoiding harming all life and then getting as close to that as you can without just starving to death is something I deeply admire. Not to mention the attention to microscopic life is particularly impressive and science-aware imo.

Re: What if plants were animals like any other?

#53

Post by inglor_cz »

ping_pong wrote: post #7

If you spend enough time watching nature videos like I do, you will notice that the vast majority of animals are eaten alive by their predators. It's slow, and exceedingly painful and it is ubiquitous. So even if plants were conscious, I honestly don't care. A bear would eat me alive in the most painful way possible and they wouldn't even think a second about it. Neither will I.

"you will notice that the vast majority of animals are eaten alive by their predators"

Technically the truth, because insects and fish are mostly eaten alive. But mammal predators generally kill their prey before they start eating it.

Re: What if plants were animals like any other?

#54

Post by jfengel »

ping_pong wrote: post #7

If you spend enough time watching nature videos like I do, you will notice that the vast majority of animals are eaten alive by their predators. It's slow, and exceedingly painful and it is ubiquitous. So even if plants were conscious, I honestly don't care. A bear would eat me alive in the most painful way possible and they wouldn't even think a second about it. Neither will I.

It's true that nature is pretty red in tooth and claw, and very, very cruel.

But nature documentaries aren't really the best way to learn about it. They're designed to entertain rather than inform. They show an exceedingly skewed view of nature.

They're also not a great source of morality. You're not a bear. In particular, you don't live among bears. You have a sense of conscience that's different from a bear's, as a consequence (both nature and nurture) of living a very different life from a bear.

Re: What if plants were animals like any other?

#55

Post by [deleted] »

grawprog wrote: post #15

I'm never really sure what the point of things like this are. I've grown enough plants in my life to understand they're at least 'aware' in some way when bad things happen to them. But in the end, it's a basic biological fact, unless a form of life can photosynthesize, it likely consumes some form of matter that was likely from something living. Extremophiles that eat sulphur and minerals and such aside, the majority…

[deleted]

Re: What if plants were animals like any other?

#56

Post by lsaferite »

busyant wrote: post #48
endisneigh wrote: post #24

I've yet to get a satisfying answer to why it matters - life is suffering. Is there any organism that can survive without the expense of something else? construction kills animals, eating animals kills animals, using computers promotes industry which kills animals. what activity can a human participate in that doesn't kill animals? of course, one can say fewer animals could be killed by doing [other things], but that…

> life is suffering Not sure why I'm sharing this, but I saw a hawk kill a squirrel yesterday. It was standing on top of the squirrel (still alive) on my neighbor's lawn. Three other squirrels were screeching and they made futile charges at the hawk to try to free the other squirrel. The amount of distress / suffering / chaos was far more disturbing than I would have expected to see on a suburban lawn. I even conside…

My fun anecdote: I watched a hawk swoop down and land about 5 feet from a squirrel in my yard a few weeks ago. I thought to myself, "That squirrel is toast." The hawk just sat there and the squirrel charged it _and chased it off_. First time I've ever see that in my life. I'm assuming the hawk wasn't hungry or was ill, so the squirrel got lucky.

Re: What if plants were animals like any other?

#57

Post by silicon2401 »

busyant wrote: post #48
endisneigh wrote: post #24

I've yet to get a satisfying answer to why it matters - life is suffering. Is there any organism that can survive without the expense of something else? construction kills animals, eating animals kills animals, using computers promotes industry which kills animals. what activity can a human participate in that doesn't kill animals? of course, one can say fewer animals could be killed by doing [other things], but that…

> life is suffering Not sure why I'm sharing this, but I saw a hawk kill a squirrel yesterday. It was standing on top of the squirrel (still alive) on my neighbor's lawn. Three other squirrels were screeching and they made futile charges at the hawk to try to free the other squirrel. The amount of distress / suffering / chaos was far more disturbing than I would have expected to see on a suburban lawn. I even conside…

There's a video I saw on youtube of a bear eating a deer alive in someone's backyard. The video is filmed from behind a sliding glass door or something, basically front row seats. It's quite horrifying; the deer screams and sounds just like a human screaming. I've gotta say, one thing I'll say about hunting is there's almost no way the animal will suffer as much from being shot as they would if they were eaten by bears or wolves instead.

Re: What if plants were animals like any other?

#58

Post by KineticLensman »

endisneigh wrote: post #24

I've yet to get a satisfying answer to why it matters - life is suffering. Is there any organism that can survive without the expense of something else? construction kills animals, eating animals kills animals, using computers promotes industry which kills animals. what activity can a human participate in that doesn't kill animals? of course, one can say fewer animals could be killed by doing [other things], but that…

> Is there any organism that can survive without the expense of something else?

Things that photosynthesize, before some resource limit is reached.

Re: What if plants were animals like any other?

#59

Post by xhkkffbf »

tgv wrote: post #31
xhkkffbf wrote: post #8

while I do agree that sometimes this seems a bit newagey or, to use an obvious word, "treehugger", I've grown to appreciate the insights from the true believers. I don't always go as far as they do, but I do find there are plenty of surprises with plants. When researchers opened their eyes and looked, they could find concrete proof that plants often communicated and nurtured their young. They shared and built communi…

That's projection at its worst. Just because you can map some concept vaguely on behavior of some species, doesn't mean it is doing that, nor does it imply that it thus deserves to be treated as human. > but if you look at their progress in the abstract Good thing we don't eat abstract plants then.

It is not projection. When you ask the question in an abstract way, it opens you up to seeing in way that's not clouded by preconception (something you seem to be doing.)

Do trees pass sugars on to their offspring? Yes. Is that projection? It was validated with scientific methods that tracked deuterated hydrogen. But you can see it as some kind of wacko imagination if you want to be a science denier.

And if you go back, you'll see I didn't say that plants should be treated like humans. Maybe you're the one with an imagination?

Re: What if plants were animals like any other?

#60

Post by matz1 »

dane-pgp wrote: post #51
matz1 wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't care either, I draw the line between human and non-human. Anything you do on non-human is fair game to me. The only reason I may care about animal suffering is because the other human can get angry can cause me trouble.

> Anything you do on non-human is fair game to me. It might be wise to moderate that position by also objecting to people taking pleasure in seeing/causing the suffering of animals. You may not care about the experience of those animals, but you should still care what effect it has on the human who indulges that side of themselves. Similarly you should also care that humans are not excessively exposed to scenes of "n…

>It might be wise to moderate that position by also objecting to people taking pleasure in seeing/causing the suffering of animals. You may not care about the experience of those animals, but you should still care what effect it has on the human who indulges that side of themselves.

I wouldn't object to people taking pleasure in seeing/causing the suffering of animals, as long as its only limited to animals (does not harm other human).

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