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We Can't Let People Work from Home, for Stupid Reasons

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Re: We Can't Let People Work from Home, for Stupid Reasons

#141

Post by kelnos »

lostcolony wrote: post #120
NikolaNovak wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean, I'm a strong introvert (defined here as somebody who likes people but is drained by socialization). Any given day I'd prefer working at home than from office; will prefer lunch at computer than cafeteria; dinner with friends or "me time" over team-building exercise; being at home with family than in office with co-workers. I'm friendly with my co-workers but we're not out-of-office friends -- I have my own ci…

I agree with you 100%, but want to highlight that this pandemic, and remote work, are entirely different things. How often do we need people in the office? Some places are looking at hybrid schedules, anywhere from 1-4 days each week in the office, and 4-1 days at home. Remote offices are rarely fully remote anyway; there's usually stuff like fly in for a week every quarter, or go to a conference or offsite together.…

I wish people would remember this more often. The last year and a half or so has not been typical remote work. Typical remote work does not come with shelter-in-place orders; forced closing of many social spaces like restaurants, bars, and parks; mandatory masking and social distancing when in public; and the closure of schools and child care services.

The thing that amazes me is that even despite all the difficulties that cropped up due to forcing people into remote work (for jobs where that's been possible) during a global pandemic, people have actually done surprisingly well work-wise, considering all the challenges. Just imagine how fantastic it can be now that social-oriented activities are opening back up, most people are vaccinated, most areas are relaxing their masking and distancing rules, and schools and child care are opening again. And companies are finally having the time to breathe and figure out what flex office/remote work really will be like in practice, and will start allowing employees to travel for business again.

If we keep pushing for all of this, and help our employers see the value, we can craft a balance that works for each and every one of us.

Re: We Can't Let People Work from Home, for Stupid Reasons

#142

Post by jfrunyon »

brandon272 wrote: post #126

What I find interesting about work from home and flexible working schedules is that it seems like we are no closer to understanding optimal policy now than 10 years ago. I've seen this discussed on HN over and over and over in the 13 years I've been registered here. A year of WFH transformation under COVID seems to not have broadened our understanding of it, but rather simply exposed more people to the overall debate…

> A year of WFH transformation under COVID seems to not have broadened our understanding of it

That's because WFH is/has been be temporary for most in management (i.e. the people who could actually drive change to procedures to fit WFH better).

Re: We Can't Let People Work from Home, for Stupid Reasons

#143

Post by danaris »

derekp7 wrote: post #127
danaris wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think a big part of the problem is that most of them have a purpose other than just socializing, that not everyone is necessarily interested in. At least some of them also have fairly high dues. I remember looking into Rotary in my area about 15 years ago, and just feeling like there was no way I could justify paying however much it was per month, even knowing that a lot of Rotary's purpose is to try to do good wor…

I just looked at Rotary Club dues, $36 for 6 months (6 bucks a month). Doesn't seem too bad. For interest-based groups, I'm constantly seeing large bicycle groups cruising around, so such groups do exist (at least that is one that is openly visible). I periodically will jump in on Linux user group (or similar) meetings in my area too. But they typically have about half a dozen people that show up. I know that hackers…

That's definitely much lower than I remember it being back when I looked. (Which doesn't necessarily mean that it is lower—it's not something I took special note of.) Still, for me, not something I think it worth my time & money to do, but not nearly as much of a pinch as I was thinking for someone that does actually like that sort of thing.

Re: We Can't Let People Work from Home, for Stupid Reasons

#144

Post by jfrunyon »

cratermoon wrote: post #118

I do feel sympathetic to the families with two working parents and kids in school when the Inside Times came upon us. Some don't have a dedicated office space at all, those that do often don't have it set up for two people to work (dueling Zoom meetings are a problem). Most people in the US can't afford or even get enough bandwidth to support two simultaneous video conferences, much less three or more if there are ki…

> Most people in the US can't afford or even get enough bandwidth to support two simultaneous video conferences

?!?! How much bandwidth do you think it takes???

Zoom requirements: For group video calling: For 1080p HD video: 3.8Mbps/3.0Mbps (up/down)

(Of course, most people probably don't even have 1080p webcams...)

Re: We Can't Let People Work from Home, for Stupid Reasons

#145

Post by cratermoon »

throwaway894345 wrote: post #101
grillvogel wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

humans collaborating together, in person, to work on a common goal, has been a thing since humans existed. everyone working individually at home by themselves, only interacting with others digitally is pretty far removed from that. i might go so far as to suggest preferring the latter is what is not normal. having distracting kids at home is not an "undesirable home situation", in fact its a great home sitaution, so…

> humans collaborating together, in person, to work on a common goal, has been a thing since humans existed. It was a very, very rare thing for most people for all of human history until the Industrial Revolution. Yeah, a lot of people helped build StoneHenge and the Pyramids, but most people were just farming (at home) or else hunting/gathering in family units.

For how pre-industrial farmers worked, look to the Old Order Amish. They are not isolated family units, the community is the bedrock. The oldest settlements found suggest group cooperation was essential in the development of hominids.

Re: We Can't Let People Work from Home, for Stupid Reasons

#146

Post by PeterisP »

luffapi wrote: post #129
PeterisP wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you require good developers and managers with " extraordinary developer relation skills", and do manage to hire them out of wherever they worked before and fire all that don't satisfy that requirement, where do all the average developers and average managers work? Picking out only the best people is something that a particular company can choose to do, but it can't be a recommendation for the whole industry - what…

I would argue that software is too complex to be created by non-experts. This is why so much of the software ever created is garbage. There is no magic wand or process that will ever turn an average team into a unit that can produce great software. The real answer of course is to pay more to hire better developers. You may even need to pay “hazard pay” if your software is boring enough.

From the perspective of the whole industry there's no such thing as "hire better developers" - if one company does that, then all it means that the "better developer" moves from company A to company B, and an "average developer" moves from company B to company A. It's an almost-zero-sum game - it's an appropriate mechanism to assign better(more expensive) developers to more important jobs and average or weaker developers to less important jobs, but it doesn't influence (in the short term) the total quantity of "better developers" available, that's achieved only by education and training (and immigration, and overseas outsourcing). "Hazard pay" means that you attract a developer to work on your boring software, but they quit working on someone else's boring software. It's not satisfactory to answer questions of "how should developers work" and "how should developers be managed" just with respect to top developers working in top places, they need to be answered with respect to median developers working on median tasks.

Your answer, including "The real answer of course is to pay more to hire better developers" and "software is too complex to be created by non-experts" is essentially saying that only a portion of the current developers should be writing code at all. Okay, so let's assume all the companies hire only "better developers" and everyone else gets pushed out of the industry - but there's not enough developers as is, so what do we do with half as many developers? Writing half as much software is not really an option.

Re: We Can't Let People Work from Home, for Stupid Reasons

#147

Post by drewcoo »

topspin wrote: post #107
Uhhrrr wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My data point is that it sucks, distance learning sucked, and my wife just quit her full time job so we could at least get to your manager's state. None of this bears on whether people should be allowed to work remotely, of course.

So when the parents indulge the escape of "work" because home is a living nightmare what are we left with to raise the kids? Instragram?

I don't know but I think we need a "scared sterile" program for the kids (similar to "scared straight").

I didn't realize there were so many reluctant parents until COVID. I feel society has coerced people into lives so unhappy that they'd rather spend time at the place everyone else is trying to escape than with their loved ones.

Re: We Can't Let People Work from Home, for Stupid Reasons

#148

Post by jfrunyon »

aisle wrote: post #57
andrewflnr wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think this is something that society can adjust to and be better off for it. People would have to be more intentional about meeting new people (seeking out meetups or whatever), but the results are likely to be better.

And intentional about exercising (as opposed to walking to BART or even directly to work for 20 mins), and intentional about eating right (instead of hopping over to Mixt Greens for a complex and healthy salad). And intentional about their work area actually being healthy (adequate sun exposure, free of radon in the case of a basement office). On and on and on. There is no way to guarantee all of this stuff for remot…

Most Americans drive to work. Most people will eat better at home (with plenty of their own groceries to cook) rather than at work (where they either have to prep ahead of time, or eat out). And I've literally never seen a single room in a house with less lighting than any of the offices I have ever worked in.

And if people want to work in an office... let them? I'm not sure why everyone hears remote work and thinks "oh great, businesses will just not have an office at all". ???

Re: We Can't Let People Work from Home, for Stupid Reasons

#149

Post by jfrunyon »

anoplus wrote: post #43

Not an employer, but I think I wouldn't hire people I can't trust anyway. We should care about delivery, not hours

Better yet: you have to trust the people you hire. You're trusting them with your trade secrets, you're trusting them with your reputation and brand, you're trusting them with your customers' data... etc.

Re: We Can't Let People Work from Home, for Stupid Reasons

#150

Post by cratermoon »

system16 wrote: post #10

I have a ridiculous sounding but very important to me reason for my preference to work at home: bowel movements. I worked with a small team in a small office. Everybody is typically at their desk in silence with the occasional manager or sales person on the phone. At predictable intervals throughout the day, someone will get up and be gone extra long. You know, and everybody else knows, they've gone for a number 2. O…

Yes! This true for people with physical disabilities in general. While the law says companies must make "reasonable accommodation", that still leaves many people unsupported. Working from home, where they don't have to deal with office equipment, layout, and furniture tuned for the "average" person is a huge boost to productivity.
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