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What if plants were animals like any other?

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Re: What if plants were animals like any other?

#21

Post by mattkrause »

cheese_goddess wrote: post #11
didibus wrote: post #4

This seems like a rabbit whole, at some point there's no objective ethics, you pick your line. Are you going to include bacteria, yeast, common viruses, dust mites, there's plenty to choose from. I think one thing that seems relevant to humans, is we seem to be bothered only once we can relate to the other being in a more explicit way. This is true even between our peers. Maybe as we understand more and more of other…

Speaking of yeasts, I guess it's not something that's on everyone's minds, but the reason bread rises is because yeasts die in the heat of the oven and, reacting to the deadly environmental conditions, radically increase their rate of fermentation of the carbohydrates in the dough thus releasing abnormally large amounts of CO2 in a very short time. Essentially, bread rises because of the the death throes of tiny, mic…

Are you sure about that?

My impression was that fermentation outside the oven causes most of the rising, with a bit of "oven spring" from the vaporization of water in the dough.

The yeast obviously die in the oven, but I don't think the death per se is critical for the leavening.

Re: What if plants were animals like any other?

#22

Post by breck »

grawprog wrote: post #15

I'm never really sure what the point of things like this are. I've grown enough plants in my life to understand they're at least 'aware' in some way when bad things happen to them. But in the end, it's a basic biological fact, unless a form of life can photosynthesize, it likely consumes some form of matter that was likely from something living. Extremophiles that eat sulphur and minerals and such aside, the majority…

Personally debates like these make my head hurt, but I am grateful for philosophers and others who mine these topics and proffer summaries. I do think they are important topics [for some people] to think about.

Re: What if plants were animals like any other?

#23

Post by greenshackle2 »

ping_pong wrote: post #7

If you spend enough time watching nature videos like I do, you will notice that the vast majority of animals are eaten alive by their predators. It's slow, and exceedingly painful and it is ubiquitous. So even if plants were conscious, I honestly don't care. A bear would eat me alive in the most painful way possible and they wouldn't even think a second about it. Neither will I.

That's not a very clever argument. Animals also routinely rape each other, fight and sometimes kill rivals, engage in cannibalism, etc.; that doesn't excuse humans committing murder and sexual assault anymore than natural predation excuses factory farming.

I mean sure it's perfectly natural, sure, whatever, it's also perfectly natural if the rest of us decide to ostracize and/or throw you in jail for it.

Re: What if plants were animals like any other?

#24

Post by endisneigh »

I've yet to get a satisfying answer to why it matters - life is suffering. Is there any organism that can survive without the expense of something else?

construction kills animals, eating animals kills animals, using computers promotes industry which kills animals. what activity can a human participate in that doesn't kill animals?

of course, one can say fewer animals could be killed by doing [other things], but that's besides the point. I'm not sure you can win, nature will always find an equilibrium that will result in the same amount of death - you save the goats and they'll ruin the land and eventually all die. you kill the predators and overpopulation of the prey will run rampant resulting in eventual famine, etc.

and of course, if you're lucky things are in a stable state until something evolves and figures out efficient ways to wipe everything out - I suppose that's where we come in.

Re: What if plants were animals like any other?

#25

Post by TheRealPomax »

cheese_goddess wrote: post #11
didibus wrote: post #4

This seems like a rabbit whole, at some point there's no objective ethics, you pick your line. Are you going to include bacteria, yeast, common viruses, dust mites, there's plenty to choose from. I think one thing that seems relevant to humans, is we seem to be bothered only once we can relate to the other being in a more explicit way. This is true even between our peers. Maybe as we understand more and more of other…

Speaking of yeasts, I guess it's not something that's on everyone's minds, but the reason bread rises is because yeasts die in the heat of the oven and, reacting to the deadly environmental conditions, radically increase their rate of fermentation of the carbohydrates in the dough thus releasing abnormally large amounts of CO2 in a very short time. Essentially, bread rises because of the the death throes of tiny, mic…

No? They produce alcohol and CO2 during rising/proofing, and that gas has nowhere to go: it's trapped in the dough. Once heated, that trapped gas then expands during baking. The yeast dies, yes, but bread doesn't rise "because of the death throes of [yeast]", it rises because heating a gas increases in pressure, and the dough expands because of that pressure. Yes, the heat also kills the yeast, but that has nothing to do with oven spring.

(And of course, the spring only "sticks" if the dough is both elastic enough to permit that expansion -for example because it has a gluten network- and developed enough that, in that expanded state, the dough can set well enough to support its own shape, rather than deflating once we remove the heat, and the high pressure gasses cool down and contract, pull the now baked bread in on itself)

Re: What if plants were animals like any other?

#26

Post by shagie »

ping_pong wrote: post #7

If you spend enough time watching nature videos like I do, you will notice that the vast majority of animals are eaten alive by their predators. It's slow, and exceedingly painful and it is ubiquitous. So even if plants were conscious, I honestly don't care. A bear would eat me alive in the most painful way possible and they wouldn't even think a second about it. Neither will I.

It goes all the way down... even the simplest animals (and where it becomes questionable as to what is an animal).

Journey to the Microcosmos - https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCBbnbBWJtwsf0jLGUwX5Q3g

For example - a Paramecium hunter - https://youtu.be/yXiJ__5-tI8

Re: What if plants were animals like any other?

#27

Post by chacha2 »

grawprog wrote: post #15

I'm never really sure what the point of things like this are. I've grown enough plants in my life to understand they're at least 'aware' in some way when bad things happen to them. But in the end, it's a basic biological fact, unless a form of life can photosynthesize, it likely consumes some form of matter that was likely from something living. Extremophiles that eat sulphur and minerals and such aside, the majority…

> Trying to pretend we can erase any and all suffering we may cause ever is a fruitless effort.

I wouldn't be so sure. Eduard Hartmann came up with a solution in the 19th century.

https://theconversation.com/solve-suffering-by-blowing-up-th...

Re: What if plants were animals like any other?

#28

Post by guythedudebro »

EvilEy3 wrote: post #18
ping_pong wrote: post #7

If you spend enough time watching nature videos like I do, you will notice that the vast majority of animals are eaten alive by their predators. It's slow, and exceedingly painful and it is ubiquitous. So even if plants were conscious, I honestly don't care. A bear would eat me alive in the most painful way possible and they wouldn't even think a second about it. Neither will I.

No-no-no, you're smarter ™ so that makes it different ™.

This but unironically.

Re: What if plants were animals like any other?

#29

Post by fumar »

cs2733 wrote: post #6

For those who would like to read more about this, I enjoyed The Secret Life Of Plants by Thompkins and Bird https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/99442.The_Secret_Life_of...

This book changed how I viewed plants. I always thought of plants as seemingly inert matter until then. It is similar to how people who never owned pets or a farm or lived closely with animals changes their view on non-human intelligence when they adopt a dog or cat etc. The spectrum of life is infinite. Humans like categories to aid our understanding but we define the categories and are error prone.

Re: What if plants were animals like any other?

#30

Post by matz1 »

ping_pong wrote: post #7

If you spend enough time watching nature videos like I do, you will notice that the vast majority of animals are eaten alive by their predators. It's slow, and exceedingly painful and it is ubiquitous. So even if plants were conscious, I honestly don't care. A bear would eat me alive in the most painful way possible and they wouldn't even think a second about it. Neither will I.

I don't care either, I draw the line between human and non-human. Anything you do on non-human is fair game to me.

The only reason I may care about animal suffering is because the other human can get angry can cause me trouble.

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