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We Can't Let People Work from Home, for Stupid Reasons

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Re: We Can't Let People Work from Home, for Stupid Reasons

#91

Post by ryandrake »

NikolaNovak wrote: post #58
lastofthemojito wrote: post #12

I think a lot of the responses to the straw man's questions are reasonable and thoughtful. But I think this sentiment: >I don't want to change the way I work, I just want people to join me in the office. My kids are driving me crazy. Is it weird to say I'm lonely; I miss my office friends. Deserves more respect. There are lot of types of people out there, and it seems like at least some of them are energized by being…

I mean, I'm a strong introvert (defined here as somebody who likes people but is drained by socialization). Any given day I'd prefer working at home than from office; will prefer lunch at computer than cafeteria; dinner with friends or "me time" over team-building exercise; being at home with family than in office with co-workers. I'm friendly with my co-workers but we're not out-of-office friends -- I have my own ci…

A lot of the calls for returning to office work boil down to people wanting to be in an environment where there's this "hum" of Serious Business™ being done--the "buzz" of people actively present and Doing Interesting Things. It's not the work itself, but excitement at the performance of work going on around them. Lots of work-from-office folks seem to get a charge out of this excitement.

Maybe (and I'm half serious) companies should hire actors to simply walk around the office, quietly talk about things, draw things on whiteboards, maybe carry papers to and from the printer, etc. and in general provide that "hum" and "buzz" that people crave. That way, people who want the Office Experience™ can get it, and people who'd rather WFH can have things their way too.

Re: We Can't Let People Work from Home, for Stupid Reasons

#92

Post by luffapi »

librish wrote: post #86
luffapi wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Things take as long as they take. Certainly, they will take longer if a “non technical manager” is cracking the whip on the team. Hire good people, managers included. Keep trust high. Keep motivation high and keep autonomy high and I assure you software will get produced at a high quality. Software development is a high leverage creative field. You want to maximize for developer flow, creativity and comfort.

Not everyone can afford or attract top level developers. Saying Keep motivation high and keep autonomy high and I assure you software will get produced at a high quality. is handwaving some extremely hard problems, especially if you're not working on an exciting problem and can't afford $200K salaries. You didn't really answer the question. Say I'm a non-technical manager and I suspect one of my employees is slacking…

If you can’t afford to pay for good developers, then you shouldn’t expect good software to be written quickly. That’s something only good developers can accomplish.

I think what you want is not possible. More process, monitoring… is only going to slow down your development.

I also think if a developer manager is going to be non-technical that they should be able to demonstrate extraordinary developer relation skills. Otherwise, what are you paying them for?

Re: We Can't Let People Work from Home, for Stupid Reasons

#93

Post by d3ntb3ev1l »

ecf wrote: post #55
lastofthemojito wrote: post #12

I think a lot of the responses to the straw man's questions are reasonable and thoughtful. But I think this sentiment: >I don't want to change the way I work, I just want people to join me in the office. My kids are driving me crazy. Is it weird to say I'm lonely; I miss my office friends. Deserves more respect. There are lot of types of people out there, and it seems like at least some of them are energized by being…

On the contrary, I feel it deserves LESS respect. Treating the office as an escape from an undesirable at-home situation and then having the audacity to try to force more people to be in-person is incredibly selfish behavior. If these people truly need that social interaction, how about putting more effort into community/personal relationships instead of workplace relationships?

Same. It seems we could be building better communities where we live.

Now the office is an escape from people who don’t want to be in their homes/communities?

Re: We Can't Let People Work from Home, for Stupid Reasons

#94

Post by prpl »

mywittyname wrote: post #71
lastofthemojito wrote: post #12

I think a lot of the responses to the straw man's questions are reasonable and thoughtful. But I think this sentiment: >I don't want to change the way I work, I just want people to join me in the office. My kids are driving me crazy. Is it weird to say I'm lonely; I miss my office friends. Deserves more respect. There are lot of types of people out there, and it seems like at least some of them are energized by being…

What ever happened to social clubs? I remember my grandpa was a member of the Knights of Columbus and would frequently go there to socialize / network. I feel like these clubs used to be pretty common: Scouts, Rotary Club, Moose/Elk Lodge, KoC, Veterans of Foreign Wars (which no longer requires members to be former military), and local cultural/historical clubs are pretty prevalent. I've been to a lot of these clubs…

They have been in a slow decline, along with unions, middle class, and manufacturing, during the rise of the internet and globalization.

Re: We Can't Let People Work from Home, for Stupid Reasons

#95

Post by throwaway894345 »

Grimm1 wrote: post #74
ecf wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On the contrary, I feel it deserves LESS respect. Treating the office as an escape from an undesirable at-home situation and then having the audacity to try to force more people to be in-person is incredibly selfish behavior. If these people truly need that social interaction, how about putting more effort into community/personal relationships instead of workplace relationships?

For what it's worth, without the word option being emphasized here, yours is an equally selfish desire because it brings harm to that person or group of people who prefer the office experience. I liked working in an office, sorry you don't.

I'm confused about what you're arguing. Are you saying "by allowing people the freedom to work from home it harms people who wish those other people would join them in the office"? Or are you saying, "I realize you're not saying people should be forced to come into the office, but if you were arguing that it would be very selfish"? One of those is absurd and the other is the weirdest kind of straw man I've ever heard.

Re: We Can't Let People Work from Home, for Stupid Reasons

#96

Post by dsugarman »

NikolaNovak wrote: post #58
lastofthemojito wrote: post #12

I think a lot of the responses to the straw man's questions are reasonable and thoughtful. But I think this sentiment: >I don't want to change the way I work, I just want people to join me in the office. My kids are driving me crazy. Is it weird to say I'm lonely; I miss my office friends. Deserves more respect. There are lot of types of people out there, and it seems like at least some of them are energized by being…

I mean, I'm a strong introvert (defined here as somebody who likes people but is drained by socialization). Any given day I'd prefer working at home than from office; will prefer lunch at computer than cafeteria; dinner with friends or "me time" over team-building exercise; being at home with family than in office with co-workers. I'm friendly with my co-workers but we're not out-of-office friends -- I have my own ci…

This was brave self exploration and a lot of empathy for others, I strongly resonate with everything you said. I think these surveys of people saying they feel more productive at home are taken as law right now but it will look different over time. From my perspective, there seems to be a negative feedback cycle too for a lot of people feeling bad from staying home over a long period of time and then wanting to stay home even more as the main lever for feeling better.

Re: We Can't Let People Work from Home, for Stupid Reasons

#97

Post by alistairSH »

pram wrote: post #50
system16 wrote: post #10

I have a ridiculous sounding but very important to me reason for my preference to work at home: bowel movements. I worked with a small team in a small office. Everybody is typically at their desk in silence with the occasional manager or sales person on the phone. At predictable intervals throughout the day, someone will get up and be gone extra long. You know, and everybody else knows, they've gone for a number 2. O…

Yeah no joke. I have IBS and I’m self conscious in the same way. It just adds a lot of unpleasant stress to my life over something so dumb. Not to mention I’ve worked in places with two bathrooms total for like 300+ males lol. Always a pleasure to be standing in line after lunch.

Not to mention I’ve worked in places with two bathrooms total for like 300+ males lol. Always a pleasure to be standing in line after lunch.

If you're based in the US, that's likely illegal. OSHA requires 1 toilet + 1 urinal per 50 employees (IIRC). CA and other states have slightly stricter requirements.

Re: We Can't Let People Work from Home, for Stupid Reasons

#98

Post by 41209 »

librish wrote: post #53

"I can't let me team work from home, they might not work hard." "Maybe you should work to improve what you measure and how you encourage feedback. It is normally a good idea to have ways to tell if people are doing a good job for what you are paying them to do." Measuring this stuff is really, really hard. If you're a manager who's non-technical it's almost impossible. No-one is saying that you can't slack off while…

You can also just not do anything when you're in the office.

Is someone who writes bad code all day really less valuable than someone who gets their tasks done, and then plays Xbox

Re: We Can't Let People Work from Home, for Stupid Reasons

#99

Post by fosk »

The two fronts of people shouting "Working at home" vs "I want the office" can be almost always summed up by how long the commute is:

* Working at home: commute longer than 30-45 minutes.

* Working at office: commute shorter than 30-45 minutes.

Like everything in life, people optimize for different things in life. Optimizing for a short commute is a choice that people can make if they want, likewise optimizing for a bigger home 60 minutes away.

I still have to hear somebody who lives at a short walk to the office, wanting to work from home, because it really wouldn't make any sense at all. Remove the commute from the equation, and the office is superior in any possible way: socially, economically, mentally. Now if they were to move 60 minutes away, I would understand why they would want to work from home.

It's all a function of commute, which in and by itself is a choice in our highly paid industry.

Re: We Can't Let People Work from Home, for Stupid Reasons

#100

Post by imbnwa »

minikites wrote: post #75
librish wrote: post #53

"I can't let me team work from home, they might not work hard." "Maybe you should work to improve what you measure and how you encourage feedback. It is normally a good idea to have ways to tell if people are doing a good job for what you are paying them to do." Measuring this stuff is really, really hard. If you're a manager who's non-technical it's almost impossible. No-one is saying that you can't slack off while…

>Measuring this stuff is really, really hard. If you're a manager who's non-technical it's almost impossible. The job of a manager is supposed to be hard, that's why it pays well. If you want an easy job, do something else.

Insane that developers interview for their jobs daily, usually first thing in the morning, but management can be as inept as it wishes
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