Japan's government plans to encourage 4-day workweek, but experts split • Hacker News Board

Re: Japan's government plans to encourage 4-day workweek, but experts split

#261

Post by suls » Mon, Jun 21, 2021, 6:34 AM UTC

skhr0680 wrote: post #184

The social contract in Japan was that you’d give your life to your employer in exchange for a fair wage and stable employment until you retired. Neither of those things are true now. Wages are low and companies either ignore their legal obligations or hire people as contractors, who have less rights than full time “employees”. Now, many people, especially women* and young people are finding that it’s possible to run…

Entry-level to mid-level is about 15-35万円/month. I am really curious what sort of SMEs you are talking about. Mind giving some examples?

Re: Japan's government plans to encourage 4-day workweek, but experts split

#262

Post by fy20 » Mon, Jun 21, 2021, 6:36 AM UTC

kortilla wrote: post #240

legulere wrote: post #228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People are still going to work more efficient when they work 32 instead of 40 hours in many jobs as fatigue sets in at some point.

No, there are jobs where you do rote things on demand or at particular intervals with no fatigue at 40 hours per week. Examples from my own employment experience: - front desk clerk at a hotel - fuel pump operator Both of these are pretty dull work that doesn’t exhaust you at all at the 40 hour work week. Most of the time is spent idle and the time spent working doesn’t require much going on upstairs.

Most of these customer facing jobs will be abandoned or optimised away in the next few decades.

Front desk work could be done away with mostly by electronic systems (most of the time when I "check in" it's just picking up a ready made room card as I checked in online). You could even centralise the "talking to a human" part in a call center operating a number of hotels, who delegate to staff on the premises (house keeping, maintenance, room service, etc). Of course luxury hotels will still have humans.

Fuel pump operator hasn't been a job in most Western countries for decades, as you just pump fuel yourself (and often even pay at the pump). Is "EV charger operator" a job?

Re: Japan's government plans to encourage 4-day workweek, but experts split

#263

Post by aix1 » Mon, Jun 21, 2021, 6:37 AM UTC

failwhaleshark wrote: post #105

isatty wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What’s wrong with an hour long lunch? Isn’t that normal?

If and when companies stop treating employees like children and more like adults who can decide for themselves when to take breaks, work, and take vacations, they might just watch productivity and morale soar. Netflix generally has the right idea on this.

Can also highly recommend Google (from first-hand experience). While there are pockets where this isn't 100% true, internal mobility is first-class so it's easy to improve things if you don't land well.

Re: Japan's government plans to encourage 4-day workweek, but experts split

#264

Post by namdnay » Mon, Jun 21, 2021, 6:38 AM UTC

ineedasername wrote: post #256

onion2k wrote: post #213

I think a lot of the replies in the thread so far have focused on tech (understandably, this is HN after all) but that's missing something obvious - the 4 day week would apply to everyone. In tech it's very likely someone going from 5 days to 4 days could still achieve the same amount of actual work. As other commenters have said, many tech workers don't do productive work all the time they're present. Retail workers…

Our country is wealthy enough That's really going to depend on the business. Plenty of businesses-- specifically ones with a lot of customer-facing staff-- would not be able to sustain labor cost increases up to 20%. To take an easy example where I already know the #'s in the US, labor costs at a fast-food restaurant are around 25% of costs. Net profit margins range from 5% up to around 20%, but that top end is for M…

Keep in mind that if the additional costs are applied to everyone, prices can increase without one restaurant in particular being penalised

Demand is probably slightly elastic, but not that much (there are plenty of restaurants in France, despite very high cost of employment)

Re: Japan's government plans to encourage 4-day workweek, but experts split

#265

Post by nsonha » Mon, Jun 21, 2021, 6:39 AM UTC

Animats wrote: post #231

vincnetas wrote: post #198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you would treat devs like warehouse workers right now,all devs would run away. I mean force them to be 100% effective all the 8 hours and track every move they make. On the other hand allow warehouse workers flexible schedule and decent pay so they could live decent life by puting in 20 hours a week (even while measuring every move they make) and i bet there would be devs who would convert to warehouse workers.

If you would treat devs like warehouse workers right now,all devs would run away. I mean force them to be 100% effective all the 8 hours and track every move they make. CleverControl employee monitoring pitch: "This software offers powerful features: keylogging, screen recording, live viewing, remote settings, clipboard control, Skype monitoring, and more. The software records time that was spent on this or that acti…

can they already do this with all the data they have in github? Not that I would endorse it, but that sounds like better data for tracking. Instead of enforcing time you enforce activities.

Re: Japan's government plans to encourage 4-day workweek, but experts split

#266

Post by namdnay » Mon, Jun 21, 2021, 6:39 AM UTC

kortilla wrote: post #240

legulere wrote: post #228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People are still going to work more efficient when they work 32 instead of 40 hours in many jobs as fatigue sets in at some point.

No, there are jobs where you do rote things on demand or at particular intervals with no fatigue at 40 hours per week. Examples from my own employment experience: - front desk clerk at a hotel - fuel pump operator Both of these are pretty dull work that doesn’t exhaust you at all at the 40 hour work week. Most of the time is spent idle and the time spent working doesn’t require much going on upstairs.

These jobs are disappearing as part of the constant search for productivity increases. A front desk clerk will now spend their “down” time doing admin work for example

Re: Japan's government plans to encourage 4-day workweek, but experts split

#267

Post by raxxorrax » Mon, Jun 21, 2021, 6:40 AM UTC

onion2k wrote: post #213

I think a lot of the replies in the thread so far have focused on tech (understandably, this is HN after all) but that's missing something obvious - the 4 day week would apply to everyone. In tech it's very likely someone going from 5 days to 4 days could still achieve the same amount of actual work. As other commenters have said, many tech workers don't do productive work all the time they're present. Retail workers…

Completely true. Working has become a race to the bottom. For substanance, we should today be able to work three days for that matter. Volunteers for more are fine too. Problem is, that all economies must find common ground, or you will indeed get behind.

Re: Japan's government plans to encourage 4-day workweek, but experts split

#268

Post by SilverRed » Mon, Jun 21, 2021, 6:40 AM UTC

ineedasername wrote: post #256

onion2k wrote: post #213

I think a lot of the replies in the thread so far have focused on tech (understandably, this is HN after all) but that's missing something obvious - the 4 day week would apply to everyone. In tech it's very likely someone going from 5 days to 4 days could still achieve the same amount of actual work. As other commenters have said, many tech workers don't do productive work all the time they're present. Retail workers…

Our country is wealthy enough That's really going to depend on the business. Plenty of businesses-- specifically ones with a lot of customer-facing staff-- would not be able to sustain labor cost increases up to 20%. To take an easy example where I already know the #'s in the US, labor costs at a fast-food restaurant are around 25% of costs. Net profit margins range from 5% up to around 20%, but that top end is for M…

It doesn't matter as long as all competitors have to do the same. The price of a burger could go up and it wouldn't matter as long as every other burger goes up the same amount.

Re: Japan's government plans to encourage 4-day workweek, but experts split

#269

Post by SilverRed » Mon, Jun 21, 2021, 6:43 AM UTC

fy20 wrote: post #262

kortilla wrote: post #240

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, there are jobs where you do rote things on demand or at particular intervals with no fatigue at 40 hours per week. Examples from my own employment experience: - front desk clerk at a hotel - fuel pump operator Both of these are pretty dull work that doesn’t exhaust you at all at the 40 hour work week. Most of the time is spent idle and the time spent working doesn’t require much going on upstairs.

Most of these customer facing jobs will be abandoned or optimised away in the next few decades. Front desk work could be done away with mostly by electronic systems (most of the time when I "check in" it's just picking up a ready made room card as I checked in online). You could even centralise the "talking to a human" part in a call center operating a number of hotels, who delegate to staff on the premises (house ke…

As far as I can see. These front desk jobs exist as theft/crime deterrent and to handle edge cases. Sure you could fully automate fuel stations but who is going to call the police when kids start spray painting the windows unless you have someone sitting at a desk watching cctv all day. And who is going to deal with customers who are trying to report something is wrong with a pump. These jobs have already been automated to the point that one person can handle a large store/hotel.

Re: Japan's government plans to encourage 4-day workweek, but experts split

#270

Post by raxxorrax » Mon, Jun 21, 2021, 6:43 AM UTC

legulere wrote: post #228

onion2k wrote: post #213

I think a lot of the replies in the thread so far have focused on tech (understandably, this is HN after all) but that's missing something obvious - the 4 day week would apply to everyone. In tech it's very likely someone going from 5 days to 4 days could still achieve the same amount of actual work. As other commenters have said, many tech workers don't do productive work all the time they're present. Retail workers…

People are still going to work more efficient when they work 32 instead of 40 hours in many jobs as fatigue sets in at some point.

Sometime I don't get enough sleep when I start at 8am. It makes the result of work so much worse when you aren't rested. Sure, I could make sure to go to bed earlier, but life happens and honestly I don't live for work.