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Japan's government plans to encourage 4-day workweek, but experts split

mainichi.jp

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Re: Japan's government plans to encourage 4-day workweek, but experts split

#251

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I think the contract only + no meetings + no HR (no culture bullshit, no “get to know people” social events) So, gig economy. Or, at best, hourly wage at Amazon warehouse, but for developers. I heard those warehouses are super extra no-bullshit efficient.

If you would treat devs like warehouse workers right now,all devs would run away. I mean force them to be 100% effective all the 8 hours and track every move they make. On the other hand allow warehouse workers flexible schedule and decent pay so they could live decent life by puting in 20 hours a week (even while measuring every move they make) and i bet there would be devs who would convert to warehouse workers.

Put so much demands that they work for 12 hours per day 6 days per week, while nominal time is 8 hours and 4 days - rest is unpaid overtime.

This is how it works already in many companies, also infamous 996

Re: Japan's government plans to encourage 4-day workweek, but experts split

#252
post #202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I miss vacation so much. I just fly home from the US. And … I still have to work instead of just spending time with my parents that I haven’t seen in years. I earn more than 200k. ( not west coast ) it’s a decent salary right? Why can’t I have vacation, too? I asked and putted and asked again… All that will accomplish one thing: one day in the next 2 years I will wake up, look at my bank account. And quit. To have ac…

Yeah if a boss said I couldn't have 4 weeks off per year I'd probably tell them they're functionally incompetant. Its always interesting to see how other people live.

I've rejected some jobs that offered less than 30 days (in a 5 day workweek) vacation per year.

Re: Japan's government plans to encourage 4-day workweek, but experts split

#253
post #202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah if a boss said I couldn't have 4 weeks off per year I'd probably tell them they're functionally incompetant. Its always interesting to see how other people live.

Good for you! I will cash a few years more of that sweat US money and go back retire at home. Where every gas station attendant has 5 weeks of PTO.

You be you. May you have interesting times in early retirement.

Re: Japan's government plans to encourage 4-day workweek, but experts split

#254
post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, and hour long lunch is pretty long. Most people I know take less time than that to eat at a restaurant, let alone just grabbing your sandwich from the fridge.

> grabbing your sandwich from the fridge Get out of the building, take the bicycle to a park to eat, take a small nap and read a book, come back to the office fresh and mind reset. This was my routine before I switched to WFH. Official hours where 9h to 12h, then 14h to 18h. 35h workweek, 2h lunch break, (France).

35h workweek is absolutely great, but I personally wouldn't fancy a two-hour lunch break. Would _much_ rather take a shorter lunch and get out of the office earlier.

(Just highlighting that different people have different preferences. :))

Re: Japan's government plans to encourage 4-day workweek, but experts split

#255
I have been working 4 days a week or less for about a decade by now. It's been the single best improvement to my quality of life. I've got to spend more time with my family, hobby projects, learning new things and simply chilling out. I will never ever ever ever work 5 days again.

Re: Japan's government plans to encourage 4-day workweek, but experts split

#256

I think a lot of the replies in the thread so far have focused on tech (understandably, this is HN after all) but that's missing something obvious - the 4 day week would apply to everyone. In tech it's very likely someone going from 5 days to 4 days could still achieve the same amount of actual work. As other commenters have said, many tech workers don't do productive work all the time they're present. Retail workers…

Our country is wealthy enough

That's really going to depend on the business. Plenty of businesses-- specifically ones with a lot of customer-facing staff-- would not be able to sustain labor cost increases up to 20%.

To take an easy example where I already know the #'s in the US, labor costs at a fast-food restaurant are around 25% of costs. Net profit margins range from 5% up to around 20%, but that top end is for McDonalds, the rest are on that lower end.

Increasing labor costs by 20% means a 5% increase in absolute operating costs. Sure, McDonalds may still run at 15%, but other places that increase for many others would erase profitability.

Even with a McDonalds, those franchises don't go for less than $1million each, often a lot more, and 20% profit on them seems to be about $150,000/year. So an owner is already looking at 7+ years to recoup their investment, and that's before accounting for any additional capex costs McDonalds may require when they roll out mandatory renovations.

Certainly there are many more businesses than fast food, so the above equation won't hold for every thing. But any low margin business with moderate customer-facing labor costs won't be able to manage this without raising prices, and then we're just shifting the money around to different piles. In fact as a result of those increased prices, the lower paid workers, while they may be able to work less hours and may work for a business that didn't cut their pay, they're still paying the price for that decision in their overall increase in cost of living.

Re: Japan's government plans to encourage 4-day workweek, but experts split

#257

I think a lot of the replies in the thread so far have focused on tech (understandably, this is HN after all) but that's missing something obvious - the 4 day week would apply to everyone. In tech it's very likely someone going from 5 days to 4 days could still achieve the same amount of actual work. As other commenters have said, many tech workers don't do productive work all the time they're present. Retail workers…

Our country is wealthy enough That's really going to depend on the business. Plenty of businesses-- specifically ones with a lot of customer-facing staff-- would not be able to sustain labor cost increases up to 20%. To take an easy example where I already know the #'s in the US, labor costs at a fast-food restaurant are around 25% of costs. Net profit margins range from 5% up to around 20%, but that top end is for M…

Yeah but why not just have literal slaves and not require that people have health insurance.

The reductive "race to the bottom" can go both directions

Re: Japan's government plans to encourage 4-day workweek, but experts split

#258

I think a lot of the replies in the thread so far have focused on tech (understandably, this is HN after all) but that's missing something obvious - the 4 day week would apply to everyone. In tech it's very likely someone going from 5 days to 4 days could still achieve the same amount of actual work. As other commenters have said, many tech workers don't do productive work all the time they're present. Retail workers…

> The Japanese government isn't saying "Let's get rid of pointless meetings and busy work!"

Maybe, but if you've worked in Japan, or even just living here, you know about the long, pointless meetings, desk warming and busy work. Thus, it's highly possible the government is saying "let's get rid of pointless meetings and busy work". Things are that top-down here that often companies won't do anything unless the government has said something (and it's likely that it was the big companies that control the politicians that told them to say it).

There are plenty of examples of this kind of thing, one is when the government had to do the same to force companies to let/get employees to use their holiday entitlements. Western principles such as truth, innocence and self-reliance aren't foundational here - the moment you accept that you understand so much more about the culture, in much the same way you won't understand Buddhism if you use a mental model constructed out of your understanding of Christianity.

Re: Japan's government plans to encourage 4-day workweek, but experts split

#259
post #32
post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, and hour long lunch is pretty long. Most people I know take less time than that to eat at a restaurant, let alone just grabbing your sandwich from the fridge.

Most developed countries have enforced hour long lunch breaks. Grabbing your sandwich from the fridge and eating at your desk is shunned.

I can't speak for other developed countries but here in the UK it is very much company- and industry-dependent. At my first 4-5 jobs (mostly in the finance sector), everyone ate at their desks. At my current employer (FAANG), no one does.

Re: Japan's government plans to encourage 4-day workweek, but experts split

#260

I think a lot of the replies in the thread so far have focused on tech (understandably, this is HN after all) but that's missing something obvious - the 4 day week would apply to everyone. In tech it's very likely someone going from 5 days to 4 days could still achieve the same amount of actual work. As other commenters have said, many tech workers don't do productive work all the time they're present. Retail workers…

I fully agree with your comment overall, but as someone who lives in Japan I'd like to point out that specifically "people who fill in the holes in roads" is a running joke in Japan since small street constructions always seem way over-staffed. It's amazing because they do finish a lot faster than in western countries, but you can definitely remove 20% of the people in street-level construction and would see little d…

wow is that 8 people for painting a line?
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