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Ask HN: What huge mistake did you make early in your career?

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Re: Ask HN: What huge mistake did you make early in your career?

#311
post #226
post #116

My biggest mistake, that I made again and again, was not leaving a job when it was time. I thought I had something to prove, but there was never any point to it. You don't owe anything to an employer. You can't prove anything to an employer. They have absolutely no loyalty to you, and care less than nothing about what is right or wrong, wise or foolish. So: If you ever think things might not turn out as well as you h…

Every time I've left a job, I've been uncertain and conflicted. every. time. Then, after being in the new job for a short while, I thought, "wow! I should have done this sooner!" Related, I remember a friend telling me a story. It wasn't so much about leaving, but how to leave. She was in a job that was just a mess. Finally one day during a spectacle of mismanagement, she just quit in disgust. She said it was a mista…

Yep, never ever quit with a list of what you did not like. You gain nothing from it.

Re: Ask HN: What huge mistake did you make early in your career?

#312
post #254

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Because maybe they’re just looking for the right environment, and maybe you’re it. Maybe, but they obviously also have a track record of being a poor judge of environment, since they got it wrong so often. > It’s also a failure of values since there’s an underlying assumption that people are interchangeable widgets, which is both false and dehumanising. Well, job hopping (in my experience) often signals that the ca…

If someone says: > "so far I've not been very good at picking an employer I fit with" then the only inference one can draw, is that they're bad at self-promotion, since there are zillions of ways to present the same kind of facts with a more positive spin. My view is that marketing instincts are not super relevant except when hiring directly for the sales/marketing function, and speaking as someone who is absolutely…

This comment grew way too long. Tl;Dr: I agree with most of what you say. However, I think employment is way too complex a multi-way relationship to be considered interchangeable by any party. By that I mean it's possible to do so, but at a great cost of productivity for all involved.

That means employers shouldn't instinctively fire employees in any situation; first, they should make a reasonable effort at fixing the issue while retaining the employee. (Be it through training, changing their role, whatever it might be.) Anything else is a great hidden cost of productivity.

It also doesn't mean employees shouldn't leave bad jobs -- it just means they should make a reasonable effort at "changing their employer" as someone put it. If that fails, quitting is necessary, but also that is at a great hidden cost in the complexities of employment.

----

> then the only inference one can draw, is that they're bad at self-promotion, since there are zillions of ways to present the same kind of facts with a more positive spin.

They do try to spin it, of course. But their longer message boils down to "somehow I keep ending up at jobs where I don't feel like I belong."

That doesn't have to be bad, but if it seems like they just keep shooting from the hip and just hoping to end up somewhere good, then there's very little to reassure me that they will. If they show me they are working actively on fixing the problems (whatever they are) that put them in bad places, then that's a completely different matter.

> I recommend reviewing an article (even the wikipedia entry will do) on the Fundamental Attribution Error,

I strongly believe people's actions are primarily responses to their historic and present environment, so while I do worry about FAE-type problems in general, this is not one of the situations where I think it applies too much.

You're right in a sense, though: I did use the wrong phrase. It's not that I believe the candidate is bad at picking employers, only that a history of repeatedly ending up with the wrong employer leads me to require more evidence than usual that this is also not one of those unlucky circumstances where they somehow end up with the wrong employer -- maybe through no fault of their own. (Accidentally speaking of correlation as causation is a big problem, and I readily admit this was a huge mistake of mine in the previous comments.)

I am worried about one common inferential error, though: the people who don't have resumes full of job-hopping could very well have just the same propensity of ending up with the wrong employer, only they don't take action on it. Is that situation even worse? Maybe. Probably. How likely is this confounder? No idea. It certainly makes the problem much more complex.

> Well, no, employers are, for the most part, companies,

Technically, yes, an employer is nothing but a legal entity with some accounting rules to follow.

That's not the sense in which I view employment, though. It's also a set of co-workers, it's processes through which work gets done, it's perks, it's insurance, it's the actual jobs to be done, it's consumer desires, it's supplier knowledge, it's future prospects, it's social status, it's connections and a network, and so on and so forth. Reducing it to a legal entity is an over-simplification. If it were that simple, then sure, they'd be exchangeable. (Maybe this is my fault for choosing the wrong word again; would it have been more clear if I said employment instead of employer?)

I don't contest we have an awful history, present, and future of employers abusing workers. I don't think that makes employments interchangeable -- if anything, it's the opposite.

> I've never appreciated the fiction of "we're like a family"

Neither have I, and I think I said as much in my comment too.

> Curiously, one of the goals of much collective bargaining is to make employees and employers nigh-on interchangeable via standardized agreements.

I do admire the efforts of collective bargaining that have gotten us this far (I live in a country that was strongly shaped by this process, and it's on many international scales one of the best places in the world to live and work.) I can't really say many negative things about it.

I don't think commoditisation of employers and employees is a way to prosperity. There is a lot of hidden complexity in the relationship between employee and their employment and the employer that is incompatible with commoditization and interchangeability.

Just as I cannot take whatever I have learned (technology, processes, co-workers, consumer desires) and productively apply it blindly in a new employment, my employer cannot take another developer of similar demography as me and expect them to know the technology, processes, co-workers, and consumer desires the way I know them after so-and-so many years working hands-on with continual improvement.

Re: Ask HN: What huge mistake did you make early in your career?

#314

Held too many strong opinions for really no good reason other than technical "virtue signaling" of sorts. At the time, it felt so right. I had all the perfect, rational arguments. Years passed, experience and nuance decayed the strength of my opinions, and it was fascinating to realize -- even where I was perfectly right, I was mostly only right accidentally, my arguments were just a story to fit the narrative, never…

> Held too many strong opinions for really no good reason other than technical "virtue signaling" of sorts. Oh my god this is so true for me too. I had really strong opinions on so many things that if I put aside my ignorant opinions about them, I / my life / career would have been better. Strong opinions I had included I don't need to use OOP in PHP (had to until too late), Bitcoin is worthless who would ever invest…

Is Redis really "NoSQL" in the hype sense? Redis is a great, in memory key-value store, but no one's arguing it replaces a relational database for relational models.

Re: Ask HN: What huge mistake did you make early in your career?

#315
post #181

I was at IBM, fixing a critical mainframe that had brought the entire check clearance system for the country down. An angry customer was breathing down my neck, making idiotic suggestions. I was rattled. He wanted me to try swapping out some component. I said no, I was 100% sure that was not the problem. I was laser focused on fixing this problem. Turned out I was wrong. Customer complained to my management and I got…

Thank you for pointing to John Perry Barlow's 25 Principles https://www.jambase.com/article/john-perry-barlow-25-princip...

Re: Ask HN: What huge mistake did you make early in your career?

#316
Working for too long in a place where I was (literally) the expert. This was dotcom bubble time, so I ended up in a graphics firm wanting to get into ‘the web’. This inflated my ego, but left me without a proper mentor, or people to learn from. In retrospect it was fun, but mostly wasted time and we did so many dumb things and reinvented the wheel so many times I blush to think of it all now.

Re: Ask HN: What huge mistake did you make early in your career?

#317

Working at the NSA. I am no longer able to travel to mainland China out of concern for my safety. I work closely with hardware and the inability to visit Chinese factories is becoming a career limitation.

> I am no longer able to travel to mainland China

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rAlTOfl9F2w

Re: Ask HN: What huge mistake did you make early in your career?

#318
Putting up with crap from all the peripheral people sucking the life out of creating great software. So many self-absorbed, clueless people trying to tell me what to do. If you are great at coding and getting software to work.. BELIEVE in yourself and fight for the code. Don't let social hierarchies dictate your art and it's form. And if you don't think code can be art then maybe do something else.

Re: Ask HN: What huge mistake did you make early in your career?

#319

I would say not prepping enough for technical interviews. I did a lot of prep (hundreds of hours) but it wasn’t enough. I needed more because I was always being compared to senior engineers with 10+ years of XP who had been through the gauntlet a lot. Very few companies were ever explicating hiring for a junior or “mid” level role when I was looking. (Less than 3 years xp) In the end, I realized I need to be doing in…

Their are no junior roles, only mid level and senior roles.

Re: Ask HN: What huge mistake did you make early in your career?

#320
post #116

My biggest mistake, that I made again and again, was not leaving a job when it was time. I thought I had something to prove, but there was never any point to it. You don't owe anything to an employer. You can't prove anything to an employer. They have absolutely no loyalty to you, and care less than nothing about what is right or wrong, wise or foolish. So: If you ever think things might not turn out as well as you h…

Somewhat similarly, I took a job I had a bad feeling about (I was in my early 30's) and things worked out accordingly.

Basically taking jobs I knew I wasn't a good fit for because I needed them.

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