Life as a public school teacher in the San Francisco Bay Area in 2021 • Hacker News Board

Re: Life as a public school teacher in the San Francisco Bay Area in 2021

#491

Post by ericd » Sun, Jun 20, 2021, 4:58 AM UTC

giantg2 wrote: post #393

ericd wrote: post #383

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, they can't be completely uninterested in teaching, since they're high school teachers - they're not being hired primarily for their research ability. Part of offering better salaries is also being able to be more selective with who you keep.

"Part of offering better salaries is also being able to be more selective with who you keep." If you are a private school, sure. This is not the case for unionized public schools. Did you hear of that famous case where a superintendent fired multiple teachers for abysmal performance and even abusive behavior and was forced by the courts/union to reinstate them with back pay? It's very eye opening.

Yeah, salaries competitive enough to draw talent away from other high paying opportunities is just one of many things that need to be fixed to get the public education system doing what it should.

Re: Life as a public school teacher in the San Francisco Bay Area in 2021

#492

Post by ericd » Sun, Jun 20, 2021, 4:59 AM UTC

giantg2 wrote: post #391

ericd wrote: post #354

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why is that the opposite? At the high school level, I’m not looking for martyrs, I’m looking for subject matter experts to teach my kids. At the lower levels, maybe empathy is more important, but by the time they get to microbiology or stats, you literally cannot be a good teacher without having a deep understanding.

Because knowing something and conveying that knowledge are different things. Do you want a tech lead that knows everything but doesn't work to develop the people under them, or do you want someone who acts as a force multiplier by mentoring others and transferring that knowledge?

Right, being a subject matter expert is necessary but not sufficient to be a very good teacher of the subject.

Re: Life as a public school teacher in the San Francisco Bay Area in 2021

#493

Post by dehrmann » Sun, Jun 20, 2021, 4:59 AM UTC

WalterBright wrote: post #368

diamond559 wrote: post #254

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A lot has changed since then, college acceptance rates are plummeting and competition is absolutely cutthroat. I graduated ~10 years ago in an affluent Bay Area neighborhood and basically everyone took at least one SAT class, multiple practice test and many had coaches to help them with the entire admissions process.

Caltech's freshman class size is also about 50% larger than in my day. These days I also hear that people shotgun out applications (much easier to do with a computer rather than a typewriter!) which increases the rejection rate even with the exact same number of students. I have no idea if the relative quality of today's Caltech freshman body is better or the same as in my day. I flipped through an SAT vocabulary bui…

> people shotgun out applications

Isn't there a common application, now?

Re: Life as a public school teacher in the San Francisco Bay Area in 2021

#494

Post by TheSpiceIsLife » Sun, Jun 20, 2021, 5:01 AM UTC

brightball wrote: post #447

6f8986c3 wrote: post #364

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Teaching doesn’t attract highly paid workers because in addition to a big pay cut those workers would be considering likely worse working conditions as well. You could double teacher pay and it wouldn't make a lick of difference. As a teacher, you have no control over your classroom. Disruptive students that destroy everybody else's learning environment? Too bad. No Child Left Behind! Wait, that's the old slogan, w…

Stuff like this drives the push for things like vouchers. I’m lucky to be able to send my kids to a good private school. We chose it after a tour and discussion with the headmaster about exactly how it operates. The teachers as a group research and plan curriculum. They coordinate across grade levels and determine how to roll out changes in the most effective way possible for students and parents as well. They rolled…

Forgive my ignorance, I’m from another land. What are vouchers in this context?

Re: Life as a public school teacher in the San Francisco Bay Area in 2021

#495

Post by mlyle » Sun, Jun 20, 2021, 5:01 AM UTC

ericd wrote: post #383

idiotsecant wrote: post #378

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Soft skills ate essential, more so even than a deep understanding of the material.A basic competence is important but anyone who has ever had a genius level professor that angrily mumbles while scribbling incomprehensibly on the board for an hour and then you leave will understand this.

Sure, they can't be completely uninterested in teaching, since they're high school teachers - they're not being hired primarily for their research ability. Part of offering better salaries is also being able to be more selective with who you keep.

I made the transition from a career in industry to education in the past couple of years. It's been an interesting path.

I'm definitely a subject matter expert. And I'm able to get pretty deep content into middle school and high school classrooms. And working with smaller subgroups of students is a lot like mentoring junior engineers.

But man, dealing with a lot of kids in the room is a challenge-- keeping the lower third of students motivated; modulating strictness up and down so that you can have exuberance but not disruption; picking up on the subtle signs that there is a problem from outside spilling over into the classroom while multitasking and doing 3 other things. And... just coping when there's an entire class period that felt like a waste and you don't know why.

It is -hard-, and I'm dealing with an unusually easy teaching environment (classes of ~18-20 of well-behaved and academically advanced private school kids). I'm also not a core teacher and so I have the benefit of leaning on other professionals to do the heavy lifting in these areas. I still have hope I'll get good at it (this past year was a difficult one for me to self-assess my performance).

I do think that being an expert/having passion for what you teach is a bonus: if you have students that are already inclined to be engaged, that spark will help a little in getting and keeping their attention. But it is not the most important thing day to day.

Actually, my best performance lately was when I was a long-term sub in science classes teaching subject matter that is not my core competence. I could geek out and learn deeper stuff than I knew about volcanoes and share my surprise with the students, and that felt really good for engagement.

Re: Life as a public school teacher in the San Francisco Bay Area in 2021

#496

Post by paulddraper » Sun, Jun 20, 2021, 5:01 AM UTC

glitchc wrote: post #291

In North America, teachers are grossly underpaid and their ability to discipline poor performance has been entirely eviscerated. It’s not just SF, look at what’s happening in Vancouver: https://nationalpost.com/opinion/rex-murphy-cutting-honours-... The problem is the administration: The board that sets the standards and the parents and politicians who sit on those boards. The solution is this: Ban anyone without a m…

> The solution is this: Ban anyone...

The solution is to get rid of the monopolistic education system which is prone to imbalances and subpar results.

Charter schools/private school/school choice. Recruit the best teacher, pay the best salaries, achieve the best educational outcomes.

No wonder the educational system looks like it does given the incentives at play.

Re: Life as a public school teacher in the San Francisco Bay Area in 2021

#497

Post by zargon » Sun, Jun 20, 2021, 5:01 AM UTC

gpapilion wrote: post #396

tptacek wrote: post #370

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are they grossly underpaid? I don't think that's necessarily true. I think it's true in rural areas, but Chicago Public School teachers are paid above-average, and suburban Chicago teachers make as much as Chicago-area software developers do. And that's without taking into account defined-benefit pension plans and huge amounts of vacation time. I think the meme about teachers being underpaid is mostly unuseful in con…

There are several subtleties when comparing teacher’s pay. First it’s 10 months not twelve so you need to adjust for that. Second the pay also usually includes retirement benefits that can pay you 100% off your salary after 30 years. This is hard to compare to private industry since 401ks have replaced pensions. This is probably worth 2-5m when mature, and is accounted for in their pay. I think this is the biggest is…

Buying a home in the Bay Area is almost impossible. Full stop.

Re: Life as a public school teacher in the San Francisco Bay Area in 2021

#498

Post by paulddraper » Sun, Jun 20, 2021, 5:02 AM UTC

quadrifoliate wrote: post #465

tptacek wrote: post #370

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are they grossly underpaid? I don't think that's necessarily true. I think it's true in rural areas, but Chicago Public School teachers are paid above-average, and suburban Chicago teachers make as much as Chicago-area software developers do. And that's without taking into account defined-benefit pension plans and huge amounts of vacation time. I think the meme about teachers being underpaid is mostly unuseful in con…

Would someone just starting their career in 2021 in the Chicago area get defined-benefit pension plans? Also, does a new teacher get as much as a new software developer? The $80k/year numbers that I keep seeing thrown around often apply to teachers with 20 or more years of experience, but software developers that level of experience make a lot more. In my state, older teachers get these, but newer teachers including…

> teacher

> software developers

Those are very different jobs, with very different skill sets.

I'm not sure how much you can infer about one from the other.

Re: Life as a public school teacher in the San Francisco Bay Area in 2021

#499

Post by paulddraper » Sun, Jun 20, 2021, 5:04 AM UTC

adamredwoods wrote: post #141

rahimnathwani wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is an effort underway to recall members of the SFBOE: https://www.recallsfschoolboard.org/ There is a father who has been out every weekend collection collecting petitions. On one occasion, someone tried to thwart the attempt by stealing some of the petitions. Even though there is clear video evidence and the public has identified the man, the police haven't arrested him, and SF politicians have not even mentio…

I am baffled why they are doing a recall? According to the site, the main reason states because their kids have not gone back to school. To me, that's not a good enough reason for a recall (recalls cost money). Public schools are under state and county health guidance.

> kids have not gone back to school

> that's not a good enough reason

On the contrary, it's hard to think of more salient reason than that.

Re: Life as a public school teacher in the San Francisco Bay Area in 2021

#500

Post by zepto » Sun, Jun 20, 2021, 5:06 AM UTC

josho wrote: post #218

zepto wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You're tearing down a straw man friend, I didn't say anything about tutoring or homeschooling. No straw man involved. I don’t think you’ve thought through the implications of ‘getting rid of private school’. The point is that to ban private schools you’d also have to ban homeschooling.

It’s my understanding that private schools play a minor role in other countries. Those same countries also have home schools. I don’t quite understand how restricting a private school of several hundred students affects a parent teaching their children at home. Clearly rules could be in place to separate those concerns apart.

> I don’t quite understand how restricting a private school of several hundred students affects a parent teaching their children at home.

Most homeschooling parents do a variety of things, including teaching in groups with other homeschoolers, and hiring tutors for specialized subjects etc.

If the goal of the ban on private schools as suggested is to force the rich and powerful to send their children to public schools so that they are incentivized to make them better, then you would need to also ban homeschooling because otherwise those people could still school their children privately in cooperation with other rich and powerful parents via the homeschooling model.