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The inventor of the black box was told to drop the idea

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Re: The inventor of the black box was told to drop the idea

#101

Post by WalterBright »

ajarmst wrote: post #89
WalterBright wrote: post #39

I've watched all the episodes of Aviation Disasters. The device missing from cockpits is the video recorder. Many investigations revolve around questions like what is the pilot looking at, what the instruments show, even who the heck is in the pilot's seat. Video can confirm switch settings and instrument readouts (the voice recorder is also used to confirm if the warning horns sounded properly). Instead, a lot of ef…

It would be less useful than you’d think. Pilots are trained to articulate what they are doing and generally follow very well-practiced procedures. Another pilot can quite accurately reproduce what a pilot is doing just from the transcript, and the warning horns and other indicators are quite expressive of other things. The audio is good enough to hear breakers opening. Anything a video camera could see out the windo…

I've watched enough Aviation Disasters to know this isn't always good enough.

Re: The inventor of the black box was told to drop the idea

#102

Post by redis_mlc »

markdown wrote: post #14
redis_mlc wrote: post #3

The black box has worked well for all in Common Law countries. In countries with French-style law, that might be different for pilots. (Essentially you're guilty until proven innocent, and they hire a retired judge with nothing better to do except to drag out the hearings (and fees) until they die.) However the scale has tipped recently in the US with a central pilot records database being created recently. So at eve…

> $200,000 on a college education and pilot training, they need to think about both losing their medical at any time In my country Loss of License insurance removes that as a risk for pilots.

In the US there is loss of medical insurance (essentially disability insurance) available in most scenarios from several providers, provided somebody pays for it. Note there's always policy fine-print and limits.

But there's no loss of certificate insurance product available. The FAA pads any complaint with "reckless", which is up to their sole opinion.

Re: The inventor of the black box was told to drop the idea

#103

Post by gaucho32 »

WalterBright wrote: post #39

I've watched all the episodes of Aviation Disasters. The device missing from cockpits is the video recorder. Many investigations revolve around questions like what is the pilot looking at, what the instruments show, even who the heck is in the pilot's seat. Video can confirm switch settings and instrument readouts (the voice recorder is also used to confirm if the warning horns sounded properly). Instead, a lot of ef…

Dude, every single mishap since airplanes became reliable was pilot error at the root. It's never not pilot error. The FAA is a jobs program, similar to the old TVA, and note that all mechanics and pilots are still unionized. Governments have ensured that there will be no meaningful innovation in air breathing aviation, hence the space race...go ABOVE the bureaucrats.

Re: The inventor of the black box was told to drop the idea

#104

Post by ericd »

cj wrote: post #82
ericd wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s opt-in, at least in the US, and for the moment.

(Just curious) what features become unavailable when you opt out? Or in other words, why would anyone opt in?

I didn’t look too closely, since I just wanted to make sure it was off, but iirc they said they only upload the footage around the time of a crash to see how effective the safety systems were, and to get a sense of what to improve”. Basically one of those “please waive your privacy in the name of science” types of deals. Didn’t dig through any privacy policies, though, I’m sure Googling will yield a better answer.

Re: The inventor of the black box was told to drop the idea

#105

Post by missedthecue »

garaetjjte wrote: post #96
bruce343434 wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If I was a pilot I'd hate to be constantly surveilled by a camera, even if the footage is "never reviewed". In fact, it's got nothing to do with being a pilot.

>even if the footage is "never reviewed" Why the scare quotes? It would be literally never reviewed unless incident occurs, as it would be on overwriting loop.

I don't even see why it would be network connected. You could make it in such a way that the only method to view the video is to open the black box.

Re: The inventor of the black box was told to drop the idea

#106

Post by zeusk »

WalterBright wrote: post #45
WalterBright wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's the same issue with the audio recording. The solution is it's in a loop, and those recordings are almost never released. As for video, VHS quality is about 1Gb per hour. Meaning you can put 64 hours on an ordinary USB stick about the size of my thumbnail. Furthermore, video recording has nothing to do with flying the airplane, so there are no safety/certification issues. It doesn't even have to be in a crashproo…

BTW, I can buy a dashcam for $100 that records HD in a loop and plugs into a cigarette lighter. I'm not buying there's any technical or cost issue with installing one in the cockpit. I will buy that the problems are all bureaucratic in nature. Just make a secure bracket for it, and a 12V feed.

If you have that to add, I am pretty sure you don't have any formal experience with aviation.

Even the nuts and bolts that go on aircraft can cost >$100. The problems are not all bureaucratic, and I get HN's hate of bureaucracy but for life-and-death matters - I'd rather default to caution than move fast and break necks attitude of SV/Tech.

Just to give you an example, lookup the swissair in-flight entertainment fire incident. Tacking couple of screens and media server onto an existing plane should be fine right? turns out not really and 215 people paid the price of that decision with their lives.

Privacy aside, being watched does affect decision making.

If you think recording people at their jobs will make things safer, why not apply it for the least safe mode of transportation first - why doesn't the gov/NHTSA mandate a video and data recorder in your car and the police and insurance can take a look at it next time you crash to decide who/what caused it.

Re: The inventor of the black box was told to drop the idea

#107

Post by theamk »

zeusk wrote: post #106
WalterBright wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

BTW, I can buy a dashcam for $100 that records HD in a loop and plugs into a cigarette lighter. I'm not buying there's any technical or cost issue with installing one in the cockpit. I will buy that the problems are all bureaucratic in nature. Just make a secure bracket for it, and a 12V feed.

If you have that to add, I am pretty sure you don't have any formal experience with aviation. Even the nuts and bolts that go on aircraft can cost >$100. The problems are not all bureaucratic, and I get HN's hate of bureaucracy but for life-and-death matters - I'd rather default to caution than move fast and break necks attitude of SV/Tech. Just to give you an example, lookup the swissair in-flight entertainment fire…

No need for video recording on general aviation, but a public transport is a completely different thing.

Any time I enter a bus in my town, I see that it has a number of cameras, which point to the road, to the passengers, and to the driver as well. Why should a plane be different?

Re: The inventor of the black box was told to drop the idea

#108

Post by ajarmst »

WalterBright wrote: post #101
ajarmst wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It would be less useful than you’d think. Pilots are trained to articulate what they are doing and generally follow very well-practiced procedures. Another pilot can quite accurately reproduce what a pilot is doing just from the transcript, and the warning horns and other indicators are quite expressive of other things. The audio is good enough to hear breakers opening. Anything a video camera could see out the windo…

I've watched enough Aviation Disasters to know this isn't always good enough.

Which episode has a crash that (1) they failed to find a primary cause for and (2) would have been solved had they had video?

Re: The inventor of the black box was told to drop the idea

#109

Post by RogerL »

zeusk wrote: post #106
WalterBright wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

BTW, I can buy a dashcam for $100 that records HD in a loop and plugs into a cigarette lighter. I'm not buying there's any technical or cost issue with installing one in the cockpit. I will buy that the problems are all bureaucratic in nature. Just make a secure bracket for it, and a 12V feed.

If you have that to add, I am pretty sure you don't have any formal experience with aviation. Even the nuts and bolts that go on aircraft can cost >$100. The problems are not all bureaucratic, and I get HN's hate of bureaucracy but for life-and-death matters - I'd rather default to caution than move fast and break necks attitude of SV/Tech. Just to give you an example, lookup the swissair in-flight entertainment fire…

> If you have that to add, I am pretty sure you don't have any formal experience with aviation

Walter Bright is an aerospace engineer, programmer of flight critical systems of airliners, son of Charles Bright. You are way off on your accusation.

citation: https://www.amazon.ca/Jet-Makers-Charles-Bright-ebook/dp/B00...

Re: The inventor of the black box was told to drop the idea

#110

Post by perl4ever »

zeusk wrote: post #106
WalterBright wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

BTW, I can buy a dashcam for $100 that records HD in a loop and plugs into a cigarette lighter. I'm not buying there's any technical or cost issue with installing one in the cockpit. I will buy that the problems are all bureaucratic in nature. Just make a secure bracket for it, and a 12V feed.

If you have that to add, I am pretty sure you don't have any formal experience with aviation. Even the nuts and bolts that go on aircraft can cost >$100. The problems are not all bureaucratic, and I get HN's hate of bureaucracy but for life-and-death matters - I'd rather default to caution than move fast and break necks attitude of SV/Tech. Just to give you an example, lookup the swissair in-flight entertainment fire…

>why doesn't the gov/NHTSA mandate a video and data recorder in your car

The automakers were already "voluntarily" putting EDRs in cars, so no need to mandate it.

From 15 years ago, standards were set so that data can be retrieved after an accident and such:

https://www.nhtsa.gov/sites/nhtsa.gov/files/fmvss/EDRFinalRu...

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