Life as a public school teacher in the San Francisco Bay Area in 2021 • Hacker News Board

Re: Life as a public school teacher in the San Francisco Bay Area in 2021

#461

Post by N1H1L » Sun, Jun 20, 2021, 4:15 AM UTC

rcpt wrote: post #440

makeitdouble wrote: post #362

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From the same report, the bullet point above your first quote: > The wage gap between teachers and non-teachers disappears when both groups are matched on an objective measure of cognitive ability rather than on years of education. That “objective measure” is based on human capital model of wages, and it seems to me pretty biased to apply to such a specialized profession. Being wonderful at making a group of 6 years…

heritage really isn't going to be a good source on this kind of thing fwiw

Yes as soon as I saw Heritage I knew that they would be pushing a agenda that would make Ayn Rand blush.

Re: Life as a public school teacher in the San Francisco Bay Area in 2021

#462

Post by Palmik » Sun, Jun 20, 2021, 4:15 AM UTC

mmarq wrote: post #222

lubujackson wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This kind of narrow thinking is what has caused schools in SF to suck for everyone. Because Lowell doesn't exist in a vacuum and the arguments that privileged people have a leg up doesn't really make a difference - it is similar logic to burning libraries because some folks can't read. So what happens when you dumb down the only decent public high school for students to aim for? The parents have three options: send y…

> So what happens when you dumb down the only decent public high school for students to aim for? Changing the admission criteria of a highschool is not akin to burning libraries. > So what happens when you dumb down the only decent public high school for students to aim for? Changing the admission criteria of a highschool is not the same as dumbing it down (whatever that is supposed to mean). In Europe children are n…

Many European countries have public high schools with admission tests that cover math, general knowledge and language. Some are more competitive than others.

In some countries, the differentiation starts even much earlier than that, with 8 year long "gymnasiums".

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gymnasium_(school)

Re: Life as a public school teacher in the San Francisco Bay Area in 2021

#463

Post by tw04 » Sun, Jun 20, 2021, 4:16 AM UTC

barry-cotter wrote: post #317

glitchc wrote: post #291

In North America, teachers are grossly underpaid and their ability to discipline poor performance has been entirely eviscerated. It’s not just SF, look at what’s happening in Vancouver: https://nationalpost.com/opinion/rex-murphy-cutting-honours-... The problem is the administration: The board that sets the standards and the parents and politicians who sit on those boards. The solution is this: Ban anyone without a m…

https://www.heritage.org/education/report/assessing-the-comp... > Workers who switch from non-teaching jobs to teaching jobs receive a wage increase of roughly 9 percent. Teachers who change to non-teaching jobs, on the other hand, see their wages decrease by roughly 3 percent. This is the opposite of what one would expect if teachers were underpaid. https://www.heritage.org/education/report/critical-issues-as... > O…

Call me surprised that a foundation that wants to kill public schooling says public school teachers are overpaid.

Meanwhile my anecdotal rebuttal is I graduated with 6 folks who went into teaching. All 6 left to do other things and within 5 years were making more than they would have at the end of a 30 year teaching career.

Re: Life as a public school teacher in the San Francisco Bay Area in 2021

#464

Post by raunak » Sun, Jun 20, 2021, 4:18 AM UTC

WalterBright wrote: post #368

diamond559 wrote: post #254

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A lot has changed since then, college acceptance rates are plummeting and competition is absolutely cutthroat. I graduated ~10 years ago in an affluent Bay Area neighborhood and basically everyone took at least one SAT class, multiple practice test and many had coaches to help them with the entire admissions process.

Caltech's freshman class size is also about 50% larger than in my day. These days I also hear that people shotgun out applications (much easier to do with a computer rather than a typewriter!) which increases the rejection rate even with the exact same number of students. I have no idea if the relative quality of today's Caltech freshman body is better or the same as in my day. I flipped through an SAT vocabulary bui…

I’m 18 now and took the SAT two years ago - I scored well without the need to practice too much, but official practice is available completely for free on Khan Academy. You really don’t need to pay anything to improve on the SAT these days, and anyone arguing elsewise is misguided as to how the test actually works.

And also - I agree - I never really learned “grammar rules” or the details of writing. I just learned from listening, talking, and reading many many books in elementary and middle school. To prepare for a test by memorizing vocab seems inherently the wrong approach.

Re: Life as a public school teacher in the San Francisco Bay Area in 2021

#465

Post by quadrifoliate » Sun, Jun 20, 2021, 4:19 AM UTC

tptacek wrote: post #370

glitchc wrote: post #291

In North America, teachers are grossly underpaid and their ability to discipline poor performance has been entirely eviscerated. It’s not just SF, look at what’s happening in Vancouver: https://nationalpost.com/opinion/rex-murphy-cutting-honours-... The problem is the administration: The board that sets the standards and the parents and politicians who sit on those boards. The solution is this: Ban anyone without a m…

Are they grossly underpaid? I don't think that's necessarily true. I think it's true in rural areas, but Chicago Public School teachers are paid above-average, and suburban Chicago teachers make as much as Chicago-area software developers do. And that's without taking into account defined-benefit pension plans and huge amounts of vacation time. I think the meme about teachers being underpaid is mostly unuseful in con…

Would someone just starting their career in 2021 in the Chicago area get defined-benefit pension plans? Also, does a new teacher get as much as a new software developer? The $80k/year numbers that I keep seeing thrown around often apply to teachers with 20 or more years of experience, but software developers that level of experience make a lot more.

In my state, older teachers get these, but newer teachers including some of my friends have been cut out of them and need to invest in a 401k like other job. Their wages are also much lower, around 35k/year to start with, peanuts when you consider that they take work home every night and weekend (correcting homework and lesson planning are mostly done on their own time).

Re: Life as a public school teacher in the San Francisco Bay Area in 2021

#466

Post by strken » Sun, Jun 20, 2021, 4:20 AM UTC

throwaway894345 wrote: post #459

strken wrote: post #458

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Teaching (in Australia, but the pattern in the US is similar although lower[0]) is known to have okay starting pay that doesn't scale with experience. I'd expect some interesting effects around tenure, because those who leave or enter teaching probably do so when they're at the start of their career, when their pay is most competitive. [0] As per https://theconversation.com/three-charts-on-teachers-pay-in-... , the U…

> that doesn't scale with experience Is this true? I have several friends who are teachers in the US and they say they get pay raises for experience and for any extra accreditation they pursue. Which isn’t to remark on whether the pay is satisfactory, but I get the impression that the pay does increase and can do so pretty significantly.

As per the linked article, it doesn't scale as well as other tertiary-educated workers.

Re: Life as a public school teacher in the San Francisco Bay Area in 2021

#467

Post by Aerroon » Sun, Jun 20, 2021, 4:21 AM UTC

6f8986c3 wrote: post #364

thundergolfer wrote: post #348

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Regarding the first quote, it’s not the opposite of what you’d expect if teaching was a low-status profession that could only attract weaker, lower paid labourers. Teaching doesn’t attract highly paid workers because in addition to a big pay cut those workers would be considering likely worse working conditions as well. If teaching is low-status it is no wonder that education standards are low and thus educational ac…

> Teaching doesn’t attract highly paid workers because in addition to a big pay cut those workers would be considering likely worse working conditions as well. You could double teacher pay and it wouldn't make a lick of difference. As a teacher, you have no control over your classroom. Disruptive students that destroy everybody else's learning environment? Too bad. No Child Left Behind! Wait, that's the old slogan, w…

And ultimately, the teacher doesn't get to choose what they teach either. Somebody else decides that and gives teachers a long list of things that the students have to know.

Re: Life as a public school teacher in the San Francisco Bay Area in 2021

#468

Post by tw04 » Sun, Jun 20, 2021, 4:21 AM UTC

brightball wrote: post #447

6f8986c3 wrote: post #364

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Teaching doesn’t attract highly paid workers because in addition to a big pay cut those workers would be considering likely worse working conditions as well. You could double teacher pay and it wouldn't make a lick of difference. As a teacher, you have no control over your classroom. Disruptive students that destroy everybody else's learning environment? Too bad. No Child Left Behind! Wait, that's the old slogan, w…

Stuff like this drives the push for things like vouchers. I’m lucky to be able to send my kids to a good private school. We chose it after a tour and discussion with the headmaster about exactly how it operates. The teachers as a group research and plan curriculum. They coordinate across grade levels and determine how to roll out changes in the most effective way possible for students and parents as well. They rolled…

Well right, because they can kick out students who are disruptive and make them the public school systems problem. When the public school system becomes insolvent, what’s your solution for those students? They just don’t get an education? We hope someone else has a solution? Vouchers are a great way to permanently cement the cradle to prison cycle.

Re: Life as a public school teacher in the San Francisco Bay Area in 2021

#469

Post by bdowling » Sun, Jun 20, 2021, 4:23 AM UTC

nerdponx wrote: post #28

This sounds like something out of a surrealist novel. > consistently use umlauts in place of quotation marks and acute accent marks in place of apostrophes US-International keyboard layout, maybe. Maybe the student doesn't know what umlauts and acute accents are, so maybe they think they're valid equivalents to " and '.

I was confused when I read this because reader mode on Safari converted the umlauts and acutes into quotation marks and apostrophes.

Re: Life as a public school teacher in the San Francisco Bay Area in 2021

#470

Post by adolph » Sun, Jun 20, 2021, 4:23 AM UTC

glitchc wrote: post #291

In North America, teachers are grossly underpaid and their ability to discipline poor performance has been entirely eviscerated. It’s not just SF, look at what’s happening in Vancouver: https://nationalpost.com/opinion/rex-murphy-cutting-honours-... The problem is the administration: The board that sets the standards and the parents and politicians who sit on those boards. The solution is this: Ban anyone without a m…

> The problem is the administration: The board that sets the standards and the parents and politicians who sit on those boards.

Most typically administration != board. An elected or appointed board will be made up of politicians, who can also class members of parents, teachers, community members, all of the aforementioned, etc.

Expecting a board to be entirely made up of people who have served in the organization's service delivery doesn't make sense. Would you expect a police board to be entirely made up of cops? There is an inherent conflict of interest.