Live data from Hacker News

Life as a public school teacher in the San Francisco Bay Area in 2021

adamcadre.ac

401–410 of 764 posts

Re: Life as a public school teacher in the San Francisco Bay Area in 2021

#401

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the military, there are civilians at the top. Right below them, it's career military. Having these standards set by involving parents at a local level is ripe for disaster. As is having local sheriffs, without proper training, elected but I digress. Curriculums should be as standardized as possible. That makes everything comparable. It would be enough to have have the top brass of education elected. You can even m…

I can understand your point of view and to be honest I somewhat agree with it... But at the same time it sounds technocratic and anti-democratic, right? The teachers' job is to teach as the people want. It's not their job to set policy. It's to get on and teach as directed. Do you have a way you square that in your mind, as I'm struggling myself?

FYI there is an entire book at deals with this topic called "10% less democracy". Basic idea is that the US has become too democratic.

Places like Singapore have a different attitude toward this that's worth understanding (not saying it's right, just different and worth understanding, like comparing OSX to Windows). There are parts of the US government that operate this way, like the Federal Reserve.

One interesting proposal from the book is having congress pass a tax law that's very simple, something like "the top 10% of income-earners should pay 15% of all revenue" and giving the IRS (career tax experts) much more leeway to write the tax code, in a way that complies with the stated (democratically accountable) objectives, but maximizes simplicity and ease of enforcement. I think there's something to that.

There's a place for technocrats. But in today's extremely "power to the people" moment that gives us Trump and Sanders, it seems like a harder sell.

Re: Life as a public school teacher in the San Francisco Bay Area in 2021

#402

> Another initiative headed for mandate status is a school policy that no assignment can receive a grade of less than 50% > And my direct supervisor repeatedly demanded that I pace my classes for the benefit of the single student in each section who was struggling the most I don't understand school. Why do they do things like this? Who actually thinks this is a good idea? I've never met anyone who does. How have we g…

Oh wow, so that effectively means C's are 50%.

Re: Life as a public school teacher in the San Francisco Bay Area in 2021

#403

In North America, teachers are grossly underpaid and their ability to discipline poor performance has been entirely eviscerated. It’s not just SF, look at what’s happening in Vancouver: https://nationalpost.com/opinion/rex-murphy-cutting-honours-... The problem is the administration: The board that sets the standards and the parents and politicians who sit on those boards. The solution is this: Ban anyone without a m…

School choice would go a long way and breakup the teachers unions (through school choice).

School choice effectively allows increased wages for good teachers and yes there's competition so you'll have lower end schools as well. However, it'll be a rising ship, which raises all boats IMO. You can also audit the schools and shutdown poorly run ones, etc.

Re: Life as a public school teacher in the San Francisco Bay Area in 2021

#404
post #354

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why is that the opposite? At the high school level, I’m not looking for martyrs, I’m looking for subject matter experts to teach my kids. At the lower levels, maybe empathy is more important, but by the time they get to microbiology or stats, you literally cannot be a good teacher without having a deep understanding.

Because knowing something and conveying that knowledge are different things. Do you want a tech lead that knows everything but doesn't work to develop the people under them, or do you want someone who acts as a force multiplier by mentoring others and transferring that knowledge?

Aristotle would disagree.

You're mostly correct though, that they are separate things. For teaching technical topics well, both are needed.

Re: Life as a public school teacher in the San Francisco Bay Area in 2021

#405

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Eh, I know a teacher in my state that is paid more than I am as a software dev, and that's not too unusual (I know other states might be different as we are in the top 10 for teacher salary). We also spend $14k per student per year at my district. The education is ok. I feel that the main issue is that the wrong things are being taught. How about things like personal finance, basic mechanical and electrical skills (l…

Most states in the US require a civics class in high school (normally called us government). Several states require personal financial literacy class. DIY is not one I know anywhere requiring. But something being required and something being preserved is very different. It's very normal to lose a lot of that knowledge after a couple years so if your goal is they pass a civics test/know basic finance it'll probably co…

Yeah, but most of the civics classes are a joke compared to the citizenship test.

The used to have shop or home economics as required classes.

I do agree that it is up to the student to maintain proficiency. I just feel like many of the tests and classes are ridiculously easy, like to the point of being geared to passing people rather than teaching. But I do also acknowledge that I forget about stuff I don't use, like complex fractions and fraction multiplication.

Re: Life as a public school teacher in the San Francisco Bay Area in 2021

#406

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Through state elections. Vote for a government that changes policies. Like every other parent in every other community. I think the main difference is, that Europeans i. general are less individualistic than Americans. Usually, we just accept that kind of things. Except for a small minority. Philosophically, I would say that a country or nation can only be successful if some common things are equal for everyone. Lett…

But why is the state the right level for decision making? Why is decision making at a lower level wrong? And why is decision making at a higher level not better? Why did you pick 'state' level and go with that?

State or federal doesn't matter. County is too small, when town A has a different curriculum than town B 29 km away things break down. Maybe town B is richer, then town B might not want to fund schools in town A, leaving those desolate. But maybe town As curriculum is better suited for higher education, then what? There ia no silver bullet, but going with stuff that works it would be centralised at a certain level. Se goes for law enforcement, emergency services, military, health care... Otherwise there wont be any social fairness left.

Re: Life as a public school teacher in the San Francisco Bay Area in 2021

#407
I am close to two families with children in the SF public school system. One family has a 5-year-old boy and 7-year-old girl. The other family has an 11-year-old boy.

SF schools went to all-remote education starting in March 2020 and by the end of the 2020-2021 school year, did not yet return for in-person instruction. The effect on children's education has been devastating. [0]

The teacher's union refused to entertain in-person teaching even though SF has reportedly reached herd immunity as of May 2021. Negotiations have yielded almost no progress and well-meaning high-earning parents dedicated to the public school system have been stymied despite organizing as a group. [1]

As a former college professor, I understand low wages are a problem for most teachers. Even as a tenure-track professor, my salary in 2009 was less than 50% of what I was (and am) able to command as a front-end developer in the Bay Area.

Teaching K-12 in public schools in the US is difficult. There are nigh insurmountable problems which, in my opinion, are the product of so few financial resources dedicated to the project of educating children in the US.

The behavioral problems less-endowed schools encounter among their students is an outgrowth of poor funding and poverty economics.

Public school education in wealthy communities (famously Stuyvesant High School [2]) is a different story altogether.

[0] https://www.nytimes.com/2021/06/16/opinion/remote-learning-f...

[1] https://decreasingthedistance.org

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stuyvesant_High_School

Re: Life as a public school teacher in the San Francisco Bay Area in 2021

#408

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But why is the state the right level for decision making? Why is decision making at a lower level wrong? And why is decision making at a higher level not better? Why did you pick 'state' level and go with that?

State or federal doesn't matter. County is too small, when town A has a different curriculum than town B 29 km away things break down. Maybe town B is richer, then town B might not want to fund schools in town A, leaving those desolate. But maybe town As curriculum is better suited for higher education, then what? There ia no silver bullet, but going with stuff that works it would be centralised at a certain level. S…

> Maybe town B is richer, then town B might not want to fund schools in town A, leaving those desolate.

Ok but I can say 'maybe country B is richer, then country B might not want to fund schools in country A, leaving those desolate'.

Why's that not the same?

Re: Life as a public school teacher in the San Francisco Bay Area in 2021

#409

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://www.heritage.org/education/report/assessing-the-comp... > Workers who switch from non-teaching jobs to teaching jobs receive a wage increase of roughly 9 percent. Teachers who change to non-teaching jobs, on the other hand, see their wages decrease by roughly 3 percent. This is the opposite of what one would expect if teachers were underpaid. https://www.heritage.org/education/report/critical-issues-as... > O…

The analysis is harder than that. I would imagine education degrees are not particularly versatile: they’re meant to train you to become a teacher, more or less. Given that, it is not particularly surprising that teaching is one of the better-paying options once you commit to that pathway. However, there are plenty of other, career tracks: potential teachers might become accountants or engineers instead. Zooming in a…

> I would imagine education degrees are not particularly versatile: they’re meant to train you to become a teacher, more or less.

This would imply that education degrees make their recipients better educators. There is no strong evidence of that.

https://www.brookings.edu/research/who-profits-from-the-mast...

> The fact that teachers with master’s degrees are no more effective in the classroom, on average, than their colleagues without advanced degrees is one of the most consistent findings in education research. In a study published in 2011, Paul Peterson and I confirmed this finding by comparing the student achievement of the same teachers before and after they earned master’s degrees, and found no impact.[1]

> This finding may be non-controversial among researchers, but it has largely been ignored by policymakers.

[1] It's easier to pick a good teacher than to train one: Familiar and new results on the correlates of teacher effectiveness

Neither holding a college major in education nor acquiring a master's degree is correlated with elementary and middle school teaching effectiveness, regardless of the university at which the degree was earned. Teachers generally do become more effective with a few years of teaching experience, but we also find evidence that teachers may become less effective with experience, particularly later in their careers. These and other findings with respect to the correlates of teacher effectiveness are obtained from estimations using value-added models that control for student characteristics as well as school and (where appropriate teacher) fixed effects in order to measure teacher effectiveness in reading and math for Florida students in fourth through eighth grades for eight school years, 2001–2002 through 2008–2009.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S02727...

Re: Life as a public school teacher in the San Francisco Bay Area in 2021

#410

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can understand your point of view and to be honest I somewhat agree with it... But at the same time it sounds technocratic and anti-democratic, right? The teachers' job is to teach as the people want. It's not their job to set policy. It's to get on and teach as directed. Do you have a way you square that in your mind, as I'm struggling myself?

FYI there is an entire book at deals with this topic called "10% less democracy". Basic idea is that the US has become too democratic. Places like Singapore have a different attitude toward this that's worth understanding (not saying it's right, just different and worth understanding, like comparing OSX to Windows). There are parts of the US government that operate this way, like the Federal Reserve. One interesting…

The US seem to be very undemocratic on the one hand, and way too democratic on the other. I guess that makes for a dangerous mixture. Examples: The election system makes it intentionally hard to vote, e.g. election day isn't on weekends nor is it a public holiday. Limited number of voting places. And then you have elected law enforcement and elected judges.
Post reply on HN