Life as a public school teacher in the San Francisco Bay Area in 2021 • Hacker News Board

Re: Life as a public school teacher in the San Francisco Bay Area in 2021

#341

Post by giantg2 » Sun, Jun 20, 2021, 12:44 AM UTC

glitchc wrote: post #291

In North America, teachers are grossly underpaid and their ability to discipline poor performance has been entirely eviscerated. It’s not just SF, look at what’s happening in Vancouver: https://nationalpost.com/opinion/rex-murphy-cutting-honours-... The problem is the administration: The board that sets the standards and the parents and politicians who sit on those boards. The solution is this: Ban anyone without a m…

Eh, I know a teacher in my state that is paid more than I am as a software dev, and that's not too unusual (I know other states might be different as we are in the top 10 for teacher salary). We also spend $14k per student per year at my district. The education is ok.

I feel that the main issue is that the wrong things are being taught. How about things like personal finance, basic mechanical and electrical skills (like for DIY repairs), and logic or philosophy of argument classes? It would also be good to teach the basics of civics since a substantial portion of the population can't pass the citizenship test.

Re: Life as a public school teacher in the San Francisco Bay Area in 2021

#342

Post by jltsiren » Sun, Jun 20, 2021, 12:45 AM UTC

Popegaf wrote: post #199

Ivdg3 wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, public school in the United States is broken. They're quite functional in the majority of the OECD. If you are a parent and are in SF this should be a wake up call. The city is rapidly failing, it's in your best interest to get out now.

> They're quite functional in the majority of the OECD. Functional isn't what should be aimed for: excellent should be the mark. Right now, the majority still forces their students into thought boxes (e.g if you fail maths at school, you're supposedly balls at engineering for the rest of your life), pretends that spending 12 years memorizing facts is the pinnacle of education, employs unmotivated teachers with below-…

"Excellent" is a relative term. The average school is going to be average by definition. If you focus on excellence, you are focusing on the best-performing schools and ignoring the rest. If you are interested in the quality of the education the majority of kids are receiving, you should pay more attention to the average unexceptional schools, where most kids meet the expectations but do not excel in anything. If the expectations are too low, there is probably something wrong with the administration or the level of funding, or with the status of teaching as a profession.

Re: Life as a public school teacher in the San Francisco Bay Area in 2021

#343

Post by Anon1096 » Sun, Jun 20, 2021, 12:46 AM UTC

Talanes wrote: post #190

lubujackson wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This kind of narrow thinking is what has caused schools in SF to suck for everyone. Because Lowell doesn't exist in a vacuum and the arguments that privileged people have a leg up doesn't really make a difference - it is similar logic to burning libraries because some folks can't read. So what happens when you dumb down the only decent public high school for students to aim for? The parents have three options: send y…

>So what happens when you dumb down the only decent public high school for students to aim for? Vast swaths of the country get by without having any choices in high schools. The idea that need a selection of different schools with different levels of prestige and focuses is such an urban entitlement.

The school still exists, it's just that it's being forced to change how students are selected for entry. The same debate is happening in NYC with Stuyvesant. No one is talking about getting rid of the high-prestige schools. Only who is in them.

Re: Life as a public school teacher in the San Francisco Bay Area in 2021

#344

Post by resonious » Sun, Jun 20, 2021, 12:46 AM UTC

yaitsyaboi wrote: post #77

fallingknife wrote: post #25

> Another initiative headed for mandate status is a school policy that no assignment can receive a grade of less than 50% > And my direct supervisor repeatedly demanded that I pace my classes for the benefit of the single student in each section who was struggling the most I don't understand school. Why do they do things like this? Who actually thinks this is a good idea? I've never met anyone who does. How have we g…

I think the 50% rule is okay. I get that it's annoying for the students who tried and got a 55%. But I suspect that the kids who would get score much less than a 50 are probably the least engaged and most disruptive. If a 50 can keep them statistically in the game, with a chance of turning it around and passing, that might be worth it. It's similar logic to not giving life sentences. People with no hope of a good out…

The 50% rule is just changing the meaning of the numbers, no? 50% is the new 0%.

Though I do agree that we should focus on the chance of turning it around. Students who score poorly early on and then score well later should be extra rewarded, not held down by their past performance.

Re: Life as a public school teacher in the San Francisco Bay Area in 2021

#345

Post by tails4e » Sun, Jun 20, 2021, 12:46 AM UTC

glitchc wrote: post #291

In North America, teachers are grossly underpaid and their ability to discipline poor performance has been entirely eviscerated. It’s not just SF, look at what’s happening in Vancouver: https://nationalpost.com/opinion/rex-murphy-cutting-honours-... The problem is the administration: The board that sets the standards and the parents and politicians who sit on those boards. The solution is this: Ban anyone without a m…

It seems education in most first world countries is heading the same way, teacher authority being undermined by weak administration. It should be the case that education standards are protected by strong administration, bothnto hold teachers accountable, and to let them do the job without pandering to helicopter parents.

Re: Life as a public school teacher in the San Francisco Bay Area in 2021

#346

Post by giantg2 » Sun, Jun 20, 2021, 12:47 AM UTC

ericd wrote: post #339

barry-cotter wrote: post #317

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://www.heritage.org/education/report/assessing-the-comp... > Workers who switch from non-teaching jobs to teaching jobs receive a wage increase of roughly 9 percent. Teachers who change to non-teaching jobs, on the other hand, see their wages decrease by roughly 3 percent. This is the opposite of what one would expect if teachers were underpaid. https://www.heritage.org/education/report/critical-issues-as... > O…

I had one amazing high school math teacher who graduated from MIT at 18, and was teaching all the way up to diff eq in public schools. He’d made his money and then decided to teach because he was annoyed that his sons’ math teachers sucked. There’s absolutely no way teacher salary+pension was competitive with what he was making in industry. And we should want a lot more people who are like him teaching, without the n…

Not necessarily. People who are really smart and great in industry are not necessarily great teachers. Frankly, if you are talking about making the salary competitive with one that allows FIRE will have the opposite effect that you want (ideology vs money).

Re: Life as a public school teacher in the San Francisco Bay Area in 2021

#347

Post by atweiden » Sun, Jun 20, 2021, 12:48 AM UTC

thrower123 wrote: post #86

antihero wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Surely this can be solved by streaming? Here in the UK we had bottom sets for the kids that were struggling, and top sets for kids who excelled. This meant that the learning pace could be tailored for each group. Still probably didn't stretch the top set kids as much as private schools could, which is why I am in favour of abolishing all private and grammar schools and making the resources available to those schools…

In former times, European countries could do this, because you've had a homogenous pool to sort out by ability. Attempts to do this in the US produce results that appear racist.

It’s almost as if genetic similarity is a predictor of social stability.

Re: Life as a public school teacher in the San Francisco Bay Area in 2021

#348

Post by thundergolfer » Sun, Jun 20, 2021, 12:50 AM UTC

barry-cotter wrote: post #317

glitchc wrote: post #291

In North America, teachers are grossly underpaid and their ability to discipline poor performance has been entirely eviscerated. It’s not just SF, look at what’s happening in Vancouver: https://nationalpost.com/opinion/rex-murphy-cutting-honours-... The problem is the administration: The board that sets the standards and the parents and politicians who sit on those boards. The solution is this: Ban anyone without a m…

https://www.heritage.org/education/report/assessing-the-comp... > Workers who switch from non-teaching jobs to teaching jobs receive a wage increase of roughly 9 percent. Teachers who change to non-teaching jobs, on the other hand, see their wages decrease by roughly 3 percent. This is the opposite of what one would expect if teachers were underpaid. https://www.heritage.org/education/report/critical-issues-as... > O…

Regarding the first quote, it’s not the opposite of what you’d expect if teaching was a low-status profession that could only attract weaker, lower paid labourers.

Teaching doesn’t attract highly paid workers because in addition to a big pay cut those workers would be considering likely worse working conditions as well.

If teaching is low-status it is no wonder that education standards are low and thus educational achievement is low, as they note in the article. The alternative is failing most students and having a labour supply problem. In my country, Australia, you occasionally see news articles describing some shockingly bad final year high school scores (ATAR scores) being accepted into teaching degrees. Unfortunately, the fact that this happens further entrenches teaching as low status and puts downward pressure on the minimum bar for ATAR scores.

Remarkable, but unsurprising, that the Heritage foundation then suggests _lowering_ wages even further. You’ll get even worse candidates heading for teaching and they may even be able to next time show the same 9% positive bump.

Re: Life as a public school teacher in the San Francisco Bay Area in 2021

#349

Post by BeFlatXIII » Sun, Jun 20, 2021, 12:51 AM UTC

chrisseaton wrote: post #328

glitchc wrote: post #291

In North America, teachers are grossly underpaid and their ability to discipline poor performance has been entirely eviscerated. It’s not just SF, look at what’s happening in Vancouver: https://nationalpost.com/opinion/rex-murphy-cutting-honours-... The problem is the administration: The board that sets the standards and the parents and politicians who sit on those boards. The solution is this: Ban anyone without a m…

> Ban anyone without a minimum teaching experience of x years from participating on boards Why do you think you need to be a teacher to direct how our schools are run? Seems technocratic and anti-democratic. The same way we have civilian control of the military, we should have civilian control of our schools. Did you know in the UK there is actually a structure called governors to ensure that schools are being direct…

The problem with civilian control of schools is that it leads to asinine arguments over things like whether to teach sex ed at all or whether creationism belongs in the science classroom. Even in less extreme examples, it will lead to parents pushing for counterproductive and unnecessary reforms that make sense to the layman.

Re: Life as a public school teacher in the San Francisco Bay Area in 2021

#350

Post by giantg2 » Sun, Jun 20, 2021, 12:51 AM UTC

barry-cotter wrote: post #317

glitchc wrote: post #291

In North America, teachers are grossly underpaid and their ability to discipline poor performance has been entirely eviscerated. It’s not just SF, look at what’s happening in Vancouver: https://nationalpost.com/opinion/rex-murphy-cutting-honours-... The problem is the administration: The board that sets the standards and the parents and politicians who sit on those boards. The solution is this: Ban anyone without a m…

https://www.heritage.org/education/report/assessing-the-comp... > Workers who switch from non-teaching jobs to teaching jobs receive a wage increase of roughly 9 percent. Teachers who change to non-teaching jobs, on the other hand, see their wages decrease by roughly 3 percent. This is the opposite of what one would expect if teachers were underpaid. https://www.heritage.org/education/report/critical-issues-as... > O…

"Consequently, recruiting more effective teachers for public schools will be much more difficult than simply raising salaries."

I agree. I have a friend that took a lower paying job because he could not stand the handcuffs that the administration placed on teachers. Stuff like you have to give people a 50% if they put their name on the paper, you can't discipline students effectively, etc. I also know many teachers at private schools that make less than the public school counterparts but would not switch due to similar reasons.