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North Carolina tells retired engineer he can't talk about engineering

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Re: North Carolina tells retired engineer he can't talk about engineering

#291

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Does it not create jobs? Not saying it's good nor bad.

According to their website, there are 15.5 FT employees. I don't consider healthy adults getting paid to do meaningless work a benefit to society.

I got through college doing meaningless jobs.

Security jobs, and working at a gas station, allowed me to do all my homework.

Re: North Carolina tells retired engineer he can't talk about engineering

#292
post #53
post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is why the letter of the law is so important, paradoxically. It is never good to have unreasonable/archaic laws in the book and have law enforcement look the other way. Since almost everyone ends up breaking them, it allows law enforcement to basically charge any selected person. Such laws should be struck off the book. I believe in Latin, this is called Lex malla, lex nulla - roughly translates to "No law is be…

Correct would be lex mala, lex nulla (omit one L).

This is weird. Even I can see that it seems to say nothing but:

Bad law, no law.

Does latin have an implied ‘better than’ in sequences?

Re: North Carolina tells retired engineer he can't talk about engineering

#293

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I honestly hope for a framework of credibility, where people vouch for others' competence on a subject. Not just for licensed/protected topics but for just about anything. You know, like those LinkedIn appraisals (yes, they suck but they're just reflection of the society). That ages old "web of trust" idea. Something without any "mandatory" trusted anchors and no censorship. One must be freely able to put any trust l…

How difficult would it be, do you think, to establish a web-of-trust for those advocating the dangers of vaccines? How large would that web of trust be, and how many people would fall prey to it? Bad money drives out good. Bad speech drives out good, too.

> Bad speech drives out good, too.

Ah, right. I think I got it now. That's where the issue is.

It could be that this web of trust just cannot work unless it covers most of the world. If it would, I believe it would be just a technical aid, a machine-coded representation of an already established "organic" web of trust.

But it must start from zero, and it cannot grow as it would be lethally poisoned, becoming a place composed mostly of controversial vouches. Could be very true. I need to think about this.

One immediate thought is that even a graph of only the "bad voices" (for arbitrary definition of bad) can be perfectly useful, as a sort of noise ("fake news", "lunacy", "bullshit" - however we want to call it) filter. It's not that a web of trust spreads opinions, it spreads relations to their opinions. And a signal that someone vouches directly or indirectly (although "vouching" is not a good term for this case) can be perceived arbitrarily. So maybe it's not that bad. It may be bad by reinforcing echo chambers, but it could also be good in pointing out the connections, those bridges between the factions where arguing is not moot.

Re: North Carolina tells retired engineer he can't talk about engineering

#294

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What benefits is Texas seeing from the Sunset Commission? https://www.tdlr.texas.gov/ shows a lot of what appear to be wholly spurious licensing types: - barbering - cosmetology - dietitians - dyslexia therapy - behavior analysts - polygraph examiners (!) - auctioneers - etc. etc.

Why should these not be licensed? A dietitian giving bad advice could cause serious harm. A dyslexia therapist could provide no benefit to the patient. A cosmetologist could cause someone's hair to fall out. Like, having something deeper than yelp reviews to help make someone's hair not fall out seems reasonable...

That's fine, but require 0 dollars for the license, and yearly fee.

I sometimes think they want to license everything because it brings in a fair amount of money in fees.

Re: North Carolina tells retired engineer he can't talk about engineering

#295

What a fascinating case. There are so many details in such a short articles that is each worth its own discussion! Let’s start with my personally theory that hopefully won’t color all of the conversation about the individual points. This guy pissed off some people and those people are using their petty power to make his life hell. It’s like the 10’s of thousands of people jaywalking without issue and then the homeles…

The guy provided expert testimony in a court. The opposition reported him to the Board of Examiners. The Board of Examiners requires a PE license for those who provide expert testimony. He is going to get to pay the fine. " Is giving a speech about how to treat a broken bone considered ‘practicing medicine’? " Giving the speech in a court, on the witness stand, under oath, claiming to be an expert in treating broken…

Your last example is backwards. In this case the guy without an engineering license is demonstrating what is wrong. So the example should be:

A bridge collapses and people die. In the resulting lawsuit a licensed engineer says, with many pages of reports, that everything was done correctly and the collapse was "an act of god". But an amateur who only knows a little about civil engineering points out one single thing they did incorrectly; he doesn't know everything about engineering, but he does know this one thing they did was wrong. The government then charges the amateur with a crime for knowing a little and speaking about what he knew.

Re: North Carolina tells retired engineer he can't talk about engineering

#296

What a fascinating case. There are so many details in such a short articles that is each worth its own discussion! Let’s start with my personally theory that hopefully won’t color all of the conversation about the individual points. This guy pissed off some people and those people are using their petty power to make his life hell. It’s like the 10’s of thousands of people jaywalking without issue and then the homeles…

The guy provided expert testimony in a court. The opposition reported him to the Board of Examiners. The Board of Examiners requires a PE license for those who provide expert testimony. He is going to get to pay the fine. " Is giving a speech about how to treat a broken bone considered ‘practicing medicine’? " Giving the speech in a court, on the witness stand, under oath, claiming to be an expert in treating broken…

Yes? If you literally state “I, like 80% of the other engineers in this state, am not a licenced engineer, but here is my testimony”, what else would you expect the poor man to do? It’s up to the judge/jury to take the testimony with a grain of salt.

That said, I’m not sure if being licensed means anything more than ‘I paid my dues to the state board’.

Re: North Carolina tells retired engineer he can't talk about engineering

#297

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Engineering generally refers to design and building , of which analysis is a single part. So it's not immediately apparent that Nutt was practicing engineering at all. It's more accurate to say that the kind of projects civil engineers work on generally end up requiring a PE, as a condition of actually being built. Small time civil engineering in your own backyard does not require a PE - eg improving drainage, settin…

Nutt provided expert testimony as an engineer. That is legally defined as "practicing engineering". https://ij.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/06/NC_Engineering_ema...

That link is just the North Carolina license board's position statement. They're the defendants in this case, for attempting to claim such overbroad authority.

Nutt's position is that their claim conflicts with his first amendment right to free speech, specifically his right to state his opinion on technical matters.

I agree with Nutt. NC is effectively attempting to criminalize my ability to represent myself in court and many other areas of society (enumerated in a sibling comment) - due to having the "regulated knowledge" of engineering without the corresponding license, I would be unable to state my opinion. Instead I would have to hire a PE that concurs with me simply to express my own opinion.

Re: North Carolina tells retired engineer he can't talk about engineering

#298

I found this line to be particularly interesting: > In fact, like the majority of engineers nationwide, Wayne was not required to get a license since he worked for a company under the state’s “industrial exception.” A half-minute search on Google didn't seem to produce anything of relevance, but I did come across numerous articles talking about licensing not being needed. Would be curious to see more hard data on the…

In my experience licensing of engineers is almost exclusive to civil engineering and some other subfields. The vast majority of mechanical, electrical and software engineers will never need to be licensed. It's also possible for unlicensed engineers to work under the supervision of a licensed engineer (PE), often the PE will be the one to stamp drawings etc.

>It's also possible for unlicensed engineers to work under the supervision of a licensed engineer (PE)

AFAIK, it's required as part of the process of getting a PE.

Re: North Carolina tells retired engineer he can't talk about engineering

#299

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have had other customers in Oregon very, very loud and angry about me getting out and running the pump myself. They immediately dismiss my statement that it’s perfectly legal for us to dispense diesel, just not gasoline, until an employee usually tells them it’s legal and they appreciate it.

I went down the Rogue River a few summers. While driving home, I remember thinking that Gas Station Attendant was looking at me funny. It wasen't until a few years later I heard about the law. (There's a stretch of highway 101 around Shasta that is a Speed Trap. The cops pull over four vechicles at a time and give everyone tickets. They supposedly use a plane, but I never saw one. They got busted a few years ago, but…

You know, in all my years of driving in California speeding past “enforced by aircraft” signs, I have never once been pulled over by an airplane.

Re: North Carolina tells retired engineer he can't talk about engineering

#300
post #263

Of course it's corporate corruption of government that is driving this case. "he is an engineer at heart and speaks up when he sees people make what he believes to be engineering mistakes. He has written letters to state and county governments and testified before a county commission. But Wayne’s troubles began when he when he agreed to help his son, Kyle, a North Carolina attorney, with a case about a piping system…

The ACLU has abandoned its defense of free speech in the US; I'm glad to see IJ taking up the mantle.
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