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State of the Windows: How many layers of UI inconsistencies are in Windows 10?

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Re: State of the Windows: How many layers of UI inconsistencies are in Windows 10?

#291

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I use Apple because their OS is a Unix AND their hardware is nicely built and well integrated with the OS. I use Linux because it’s a way to run a good Unix-like OS on non-Apple hardware. The overwhelming majority of people who use Windows (or macOS) is because their computer came with it. As long as it mostly works, people don’t care about which OS they are using.

The overwhelming majority of people on Windows are there because Microsoft bent over backwards to give businesses what they needed so that they could beat out Apple and IBM to win the desktop wars of the 80s and 90s. If businesses had never used Windows, nobody else would have and computers wouldn't come pre-installed with it. Personally, I use all of them for different purposes. I like Windows because it's more comp…

> The overwhelming majority of people on Windows are there because Microsoft bent over backwards to give businesses what they needed so that they could beat out Apple and IBM to win the desktop wars of the 80s and 90s.

That’s one case of “it came with the computer”.

But Microsoft was really clever at giving all the functionality companies want for their corporate issue computers. In the mid-2000’s very few companies offered Macs as desktops because of that. I only have a work MacBook because it can authenticate against AD and has all the management automation required by my employer. That’s also why a Linux laptop wasn’t an option.

Re: State of the Windows: How many layers of UI inconsistencies are in Windows 10?

#292

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Now it could be done to maintain backwards compat and have everything completely up to date, but the juice is not worth the squeeze and there are more important things to focus on You state that as fact, but I believe the poor UI situation is holding windows back from gaining market share. It’s not just the way things look, but uniformly communicate a single experience. Microsoft used to be very integrated and had…

> I believe the poor UI situation is holding windows back from gaining market share. Big companies just love to jack around with Windows, and do things like prevent users from changing their desktop backgrounds (in the name of "security," of course), and Microsoft has always bent over backwards to give them the ability to do any stupid thing some corporate IT drone can think of, so they continue to be loved my compan…

I have been in the corporate environment for more than 6 year more on the administrator/ engineering side of things. Currently, I am about a year at OrgPad - a very small and quite alternative startup. Two extremes so to say. ;-)

In my experience, Windows is still the target for most specialized or business software. Most of these things also demand a Windows Server component. Typical suspects are: "Personalmanagement" timesheet software basically (accounting working hours, vacation, bonuses etc. and making sure the right receipts are printed at the end of each month and more, like when somebody leaves the company, is ill or the is "Kurzarbeit" because the union with the employer settled on this). Another suspect is software for insurance and taxes, energy management (which in a stainless steel foundry is an important piece of software and keeps at least a handful of people fully employed), logistics software (usually also with needle printers that are able to still print "Durchschlag" carbon paper https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon_paper which is fast and handy for the drivers). There is special software for measurement and production with complex machines, ovens, mills, spectrometers, microscopes, x-ray machines etc. Oh and then there is the internally developed application, that keeps running the company and will be replaced sometime during the next 10 years with a different Windows native app if it is ever finished. And there is the MS SQL administration in addition to group policy for all the Windows computers everywhere that also is best done from a Windows computer.

People are used to Windows, older generations in middle and slightly eastern european countries (former east Germany/ DDR included) especially. There just were no Macs in any company besides maybe a top design studio in the capital or regional hub. This is a big factor. In most companies, ordering certain behaviour just doesn't work in practise.

In companies, every purchase is oriented towards "Abschreibung" or the amortisation period that is determined by "Abgabenordnung" if I am not mistaken - basically the tax. To be most efficient on paper, you have to use the device at least for the duration of the period determined by the state tax books, else you will have a bad tax audit etc. Anything that hasn't followed the rule will raise an eyebrow and somebody will have to explain otherwise you will likely pay more in taxes or whatever. I don't understand this stuff at all but I was told it works something like that and therefore you do so much accounting stuff such as inventory of basically everything that costs at least X, every piece of software, where you also get Microsoft and Oracle and other audits from time to time...

If you are not in the business of selling/ writing enterprise or specialized software in some capacity, you don't really have to care. Most things work using a web browser nowadays, even some enterprise software some companies use. Some software is just more performant or can access certain APIs that aren't available in the web browser. Also, it is very hard to support anything for 10+ years in the webbrowser. Stuff just breaks too frequently on the web, even compared to Windows 10.

In the end, people usually buy Windows, because it really is the only platform that actually works for 99,9% of things. You can spend a long time to support the CEO's Mac, because it is the CEO. Of course, most things running a web app or supporting infrastructure can be Linux or UNIX-based without an issue, but the OS on people's desks just is Windows and it will stay like that for a long time. There are few companies that have the resources to support something else on the desktop as well. I bet, these are in the software or hardware development or creative/ design/ art business and not much else.

Education is a very special market, really anything goes there. Simple things tend to win, but what simple is changes school to school. :-) There are schools that it seems don't know what to do with their money and have dedicated IT department, supporting anything Apple, Google, Adobe, AutoDesk and Microsoft is not a problem there. There are schools that cannot even equip one IT classroom and students have to share computers each with a different OS and updates barely work because the internet connection is flaky.

Re: State of the Windows: How many layers of UI inconsistencies are in Windows 10?

#293

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Now it could be done to maintain backwards compat and have everything completely up to date, but the juice is not worth the squeeze and there are more important things to focus on You state that as fact, but I believe the poor UI situation is holding windows back from gaining market share. It’s not just the way things look, but uniformly communicate a single experience. Microsoft used to be very integrated and had…

What market share is left there to gain? Ok 17% Mac OS, maybe 5% would switch to Windows?

That would be for the USA or Canada. Everywhere else, macOS is perhaps a rounding error. ChromeOS gains some traction and is probably more popular than macOS in the education market at least. Windows is still king at least in the world we consider as somewhat developed.

Re: State of the Windows: How many layers of UI inconsistencies are in Windows 10?

#294

I don't think Microsoft has been truly interested in improving the Windows experience in a long time. I mean, surely if they cared about us you'd be able to right-click on any Notification icon and hit "always show icon and notifications" without having to open two menus to get to that option. It's been a pain in my ass for twenty years.

Can we also talk about inconsistencies when it comes to notifications on Windows 10, too, please? I mean, every app does whatever it wants. An update popup here, a warning there. Some blocking window with full attention here, some imutable "you got a message" there. Anti-virus systray icons even render webpages as popups, that contain even more notifications inside them. Windows is the worst OS I've ever used in rega…

Man, the sheer number of times I have fucked something up because a background window jumped to the foreground while I was in the middle of typing and striking the spacebar activated whatever option button was highlighted on the pop-up is staggering.

Re: State of the Windows: How many layers of UI inconsistencies are in Windows 10?

#295
post #12

speaking of UI inconsistencies - why did the author of this page thing it was a good idea to hijack my page up/down buttons. come on man.

I think it's caused by the stock WordPress image gallery widget. I've noticed the same issue in a KDE blog[1] also built with WordPress.

[1]: https://pointieststick.com/2021/06/11/this-week-in-kde-plasm...

Re: State of the Windows: How many layers of UI inconsistencies are in Windows 10?

#296

I think the tray and notification system is cruel. When I was a kid I saw other kids torment a horse by holding a hand up, getting the horse to turn away, then slapping the horse with the other hand. The tray is always popping up notifications that tell me to click on them but clicking on them does nothing. The notification often covers the UI elements that I need to respond to the notification. There is no way to cl…

I wish that operating systems (Windows, KDE) placed transient notifications in a "notification area" like older Windows and Android (before Android added popup notifications), where they don't cover up your work (like Windows/KDE/Mac notifications), you can see at a glance how many and which notifications are present (unlike Windows's Action Center with popups disabled), and remain until explicitly dismissed or responded to (unlike the current disappearing notifications).

Sadly, on Windows 10, the bottom-left of the taskbar is already used for app launchers, and the bottom-right is already occupied with a clock, volume indicators, a "system tray" for background apps that you can't close, etc. It's even worse on KDE than on Windows, since there are a lot more applets in the bottom-right of my screen, and you can't control the order of icons in your system tray. Perhaps with Windows 11 moving apps to the center of the taskbar, a row of notification icons could be added to the left.

Re: State of the Windows: How many layers of UI inconsistencies are in Windows 10?

#297

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> A $900 MacBook Air would probably have lasted far longer and needed less time troubleshooting than a $500 computer made with subpar components. I've never seen a more-true statement on this site. Years ago, my wife was using a $500 Acer laptop, which was a cheap plastic POS, which broke after a couple of years. I bit the bullet, and bought a pre-owned Air for $900. She is still using it, 11 years later. I used to h…

That 11 year old Air can't run a recent OS that supports modern web browsers including security patches.

For most users who are emailing, reading some web forum, social media, and maybe office that matters very little.

Even fully up to date there is always another zero day, so for individuals doing nothing of particular importance the best bet is good up to date backups of the important files and when your software tools are working well to help you get whatever it is you do done, don’t change them, and don’t update them, because odds are there will be some regression, some feature removed, a change to a subscription model, some functionality now depends on the Internet, or some level of telemetry/spying.

Software has become hostile to users. Everything is nearly malware now. Easily snap shotted and sandboxed VMs are just about the only way to maintain some level of consistency over a 5-10 year span where you are depending on the software to just keep doing what it is doing.

Re: State of the Windows: How many layers of UI inconsistencies are in Windows 10?

#298
post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I can only conclude either that they do not see it as a problem, or that they are incapable of fixing it. They really shot themselves in the foot 10 years ago when they decided to go all-in on making their desktop and server OSes a giant advertisement for their tablets. Which nobody bought, of course. Didn't help that it took them 4 years to get up to feature parity with what you could do on iOS and Android out of t…

>and home users only got the ability to pass through a subset of consumer-level nVidia GPUs (which IIRC doesn't apply to laptops, so you're still stuck there) That's not quite correct any longer. Nvidia now supports passthrough on all consumer GPUs that work with their current driver. This also includes laptops with Nvidia chips and they've been actively fixing bugs and compatibility problems in every driver release…

Perhaps, but the standard VFIO-style passthrough methods (if you can call anything about that "standard") is still a terrible solution; it requires more than one GPU to use both systems at once, requires navigating horrifically underdocumented driver systems that brick the system when experimented with (just like everything in Linux does, for that matter), and requires at the very least switching inputs between the host and the guest even if all of that works perfectly somehow.

Sure, there might not be any more Code 43 (which wasn't the hardest thing to bypass, but you did have to hide the fact that the VM was a VM), but Code 43 was the relative tip of the iceberg compared to all the other setup you had to do to even get there in the first place.

Passing through an nVidia GPU the way that data centers do it, where you can run several hardware-accelerated VMs on the same GPU (as well as the host, on only one set of outputs), to my knowledge still requires this hack (https://github.com/DualCoder/vgpu_unlock); this is specifically what I'm referring to and is really the only workable solution as it's the closest to "press button get seamless performance from your gaming Windows VM" as we can get right now.

I'd be delighted to now be wrong about my assessment of how difficult trying to set that nonsense up was, because then I could do it and stop worrying about how awful the Windows 11 experience is going to be (even GNOME, for all its user-hostility, still isn't stupid enough to ditch the taskbar labels for the full OS X dock; Windows 11 has so far made that shit mandatory).

Re: State of the Windows: How many layers of UI inconsistencies are in Windows 10?

#299
post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would say that happened unintentionally, given how hard they tried for years to undermine the PC gaming market in favour of Xbox.

MS put a lot of effort in DirectX, did not loose focus with the rise of mobiles and still is ahead of all other graphics apis.

They still have good APIs, but everyone use D3D because it's has larger market share and not because it's superior. Decade ago many developers still used whole DirectX package: input handling, sound, network. Now it's mostly just D3D. It's was possible for Microsoft to grow DirectX mindshare by adding more components: physics engine, particles and effects, advanced networking or server management pathfindding and AI, VoIP, matchmaking, etc...

Instead they were focusing on Xbox and let their PC ecosystem rot. Now Nvidia, Valve, Epic and other middleware vendors consumed this market. They tried with GFWL, but it was a dumpster fire.

They now try again with Game Pass for PC, but again they just want to push Xbox ecosystem instead of Windows gaming as whole.

Re: State of the Windows: How many layers of UI inconsistencies are in Windows 10?

#300

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you listed out all the requirements a modern UI framework needs you would find that the original Win32 UI API’s are not viable. Especially if you want to support more than just C and C++. So much code is required to do things we now take for granted that the resulting patterns became new frameworks.

The Apple APIs date back to NeXTStep at the end of the 80s, yet they managed to mostly keep them fresh. Win32 is old and unviable because Microsoft hasn't bothered making comprehensive upgrades for it and never laid out a gap-free plan for how to move off it. They could have upgraded it more smoothly but never did.

My experience with apple has not been smooth at all, it has been one of deprecating without concern for compatibility.
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