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Starlink dishes go into “thermal shutdown” once they hit 122° Fahrenheit

arstechnica.com

481–490 of 516 posts

Re: Starlink dishes go into “thermal shutdown” once they hit 122° Fahrenheit

#481
post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The link is mostly a honeypot for Elon Musk haters. I wonder if they have bothered looking at the operating temperatures of other satellite Internet dishes? A simple search will net you heating and cooling devices for satellite dishes. If you face more extreme temperatures, you need only go buy a heating and cooling unit. http://www.dishcamo.com/dish_heater.htm

An Elon Musk hater here: Starlink provides an excellent example of a deeper problem I see with new technology vs. traditional infrastructure. We know how to do broadband in rural places. We do it all over the planet. We simply tax income and spend it on infrastructure. Elon Musk (and the likes) see an opportunity to disrupt this simple answer and make money selling a different unproven solution that has the potential…

>We know how to do broadband in rural places. We do it all over the planet. We simply tax income and spend it on infrastructure.

The problem is that this view means you need politicians who care enough about the issue and many simply don't. I like there being a solution that eliminates a lot of the political factors that cause endless dither and delay over building traditional infrastructure for rural broadband, and for that matter my opinion of Elon Musk is still higher than most of my country's politicians when it comes to technological policy.

There's also another important use-case for things like Starlink which is people who can't be reached by traditional infrastructure. These are people who live in remote parts of the world where governments won't consider investing in infrastructure on grounds of cost, and people who live a nomadic lifestyle (liveaboard sailors for example, and van dwellers depending on where they go). I don't think they should be cut off from the internet because of an overly sceptical attitude towards new approaches.

Re: Starlink dishes go into “thermal shutdown” once they hit 122° Fahrenheit

#482

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do aircraft engineers get a pass? > the Bombardier CRJ aircraft used on some shorter routes have a maximum operating temperature of 118 degrees. https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2017/06/20/533662790...

You may think this is a smart example, but you're mostly illustrating that you know nothing about aviation engineering. The temperature limit for takeoff performance has nothing to do with the maximum temperature for electronics or other components. It's about air density decreasing which reduces the engine thrust as well as the maximum lift from the wings. So the warmer it gets the lower the maximum weight you can t…

I think this particular issue might not be related to the safe flight envelope, although that was the hot take at the time... I should have added more context.

About a year or so after the article I linked above was published, Bombardier obtained ISA+40C certification for the CRJ700 and CRJ900 from both the FAA and TC. For the flights in and out of Phoenix, AZ, this meant that those aircraft have since been able to legally fly in temps of up to 123.8F. I don’t know the details of the certification upgrade, but my understanding is that there were no changes to either the aircraft or weight restrictions.

I don’t personally know anyone at Bombardier to know exactly why they didn’t certify the aircraft for ISA+40C to begin with, but given that there were apparently no changes to either the aircraft or the weight restrictions, this seemed very much a case of “your engineering team had to wait ... to realize an item that's going to be outdoors in the sun is going to get hot”.

Re: Starlink dishes go into “thermal shutdown” once they hit 122° Fahrenheit

#483
post #443

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Existing phased-array antennas cost, at a minimum, tens of thousands of dollars. Getting Starlink Dishy to around $2,000, and I understand it's closer to $1,000 by now, is an incredible engineering achievement. SpaceX didn't accomplish that by overengineering the shit out of it. I do not doubt that now that this problem has cropped up SpaceX will address it. If they don't, if in a couple of years this is still a prob…

There is no evidence I've seen showing that it's less than $2000. Please send a link to the source.

> According to SpaceX President Gwynne Shotwell, the company has “made great progress on reducing the cost.” Initially, Each dish would cost SpaceX $3,000 USD to manufacture, Shotwell said they reduced the manufacturing cost to around $1,500 USD.

https://www.tesmanian.com/blogs/tesmanian-blog/starlink-dish

Re: Starlink dishes go into “thermal shutdown” once they hit 122° Fahrenheit

#484

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This shouldn't even be considered "pushing the envelope" it's not that hot.

Not that hot? It's 122°, 134° is the highest ever recorded on Earth, it's pretty hot.

That’s the air temperature. Dark objects in the sun heat up a lot faster.

We have a thermometer with a black plastic sensor (why?!) in our balcony. When the sun hits it in mid-morning, it gets up to 120°F, even when the actual ambient temperature is more like 65°F.

Re: Starlink dishes go into “thermal shutdown” once they hit 122° Fahrenheit

#485
post #443

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Existing phased-array antennas cost, at a minimum, tens of thousands of dollars. Getting Starlink Dishy to around $2,000, and I understand it's closer to $1,000 by now, is an incredible engineering achievement. SpaceX didn't accomplish that by overengineering the shit out of it. I do not doubt that now that this problem has cropped up SpaceX will address it. If they don't, if in a couple of years this is still a prob…

There is no evidence I've seen showing that it's less than $2000. Please send a link to the source.

You mentioned $1000. $1500 is impressive, but is there a follow-up?

Re: Starlink dishes go into “thermal shutdown” once they hit 122° Fahrenheit

#486

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah and with the data they gather, they might be able to work out geographically appropriate versions. Eg add a smaller AIO water cooler to a hot climate area version, or some other hardening. Maybe it makes sense to apply to all versions? Can't know until you have some data. Sounds like a great and sensible beta program to me. Avoids premature optimisation, lets you see what actually goes wrong (where, and in what…

For fuck sakes people this is ambient temperature, it does not require beta testing, it requires someone to get off their ass and look at over a century of temperature data that organisations like nasa have been collecting. I see people here hate the idea of startups or engineers being responsible for any kind of reliable service even though lives depend on it, and as this "SV spirit" infiltrates more of our life eve…

[deleted]

Re: Starlink dishes go into “thermal shutdown” once they hit 122° Fahrenheit

#487

Earlier quoted context omitted.

An Elon Musk hater here: Starlink provides an excellent example of a deeper problem I see with new technology vs. traditional infrastructure. We know how to do broadband in rural places. We do it all over the planet. We simply tax income and spend it on infrastructure. Elon Musk (and the likes) see an opportunity to disrupt this simple answer and make money selling a different unproven solution that has the potential…

>We know how to do broadband in rural places. We do it all over the planet. We simply tax income and spend it on infrastructure. The problem is that this view means you need politicians who care enough about the issue and many simply don't. I like there being a solution that eliminates a lot of the political factors that cause endless dither and delay over building traditional infrastructure for rural broadband, and…

Stepping back, low Earth orbit satellite constellations appear to be a better solution than fiber for these remote locations. Then the debate becomes whether it should be a public, private, or private but publicly funded program.

Amazon and OneWeb are also looking to build constellations. It isn’t a StarLink question.

Re: Starlink dishes go into “thermal shutdown” once they hit 122° Fahrenheit

#488
post #463
post #423

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The dishes reportedly use around 100W. To safely dissipate such a power at higher temps, the design would need visible features (such as active cooling). Can't be done by just pushing software update.

Dial down throughput and reliability of the connection once enough people have bought into the original hype? Downgrading the performance seemed to be the popular solution for battery issues on phones not too long ago.

Things standing on pavement in direct sun can reach 50°C even without any added internal heat.

Phones aren't supposed to be used in such situations at all, so it's hard to carry over design lessons from there. Plus the radio frequencies used are new, unlike phones.

Re: Starlink dishes go into “thermal shutdown” once they hit 122° Fahrenheit

#490

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You may think this is a smart example, but you're mostly illustrating that you know nothing about aviation engineering. The temperature limit for takeoff performance has nothing to do with the maximum temperature for electronics or other components. It's about air density decreasing which reduces the engine thrust as well as the maximum lift from the wings. So the warmer it gets the lower the maximum weight you can t…

I think this particular issue might not be related to the safe flight envelope, although that was the hot take at the time... I should have added more context. About a year or so after the article I linked above was published, Bombardier obtained ISA+40C certification for the CRJ700 and CRJ900 from both the FAA and TC. For the flights in and out of Phoenix, AZ, this meant that those aircraft have since been able to l…

No. ISA+40 isn't a static temperature, it would be lower in Denver than at sea level. So in no way is that a warm electronics kind of problem.

We use ISA differences (the +40 you wrote) in flight performance calculations specifically. Not in any "aircraft too warm / cold" kind of limits, since those would be absolute numbers not relative to ISA.

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