Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Starlink dishes go into “thermal shutdown” once they hit 122° Fahrenheit

arstechnica.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

401–410 of 516 posts

Re: Starlink dishes go into “thermal shutdown” once they hit 122° Fahrenheit

#401

Post by MobiusHorizons »

blhack wrote: post #154

Starlink is in beta. The entire purpose of the beta is to find stuff like this. They found something, and I'm sure that the next iteration of this before it goes to mass market will account for it. You're just seeing the system work.

The _service_ is in Beta, but they are still selling a product to consumers, which means they are expected to follow normal engineering practies. This type of mistake is simply failing to meet best practices. I think it is roughly the hardware equivalent of using 3DES encryption, storing passwords in plain text, or allowing SQL injection. When you sell a device to consumers one of the considerations you have to consider is the operating range of that device especially if that device is used outdoors. Operating ranges are somewhat standardized, and most components will specify their operating range in the datasheet precisely because this is one of those fundamental considerations (like power requirements).

Examples: [1] The least stringent automotive standard I could find (AEC-Q100 grade 3) expects components to operate from -40°C (-40°F) - 85°C (185°F). [2] A pretty basic article on designing outdoor products suggests at least -20°C(-4°F) - 70°C (158°F).

This is a standard part of the design flow precisely so that you don't make a mistake as monumental as shipping an outdoor device that can't withstand the weather at the location you shipped it to.

[1] https://community.cypress.com/t5/Knowledge-Base-Articles/Mea... [2] https://suntsu.com/2017/09/15/the-great-outdoors-designing-p...

Re: Starlink dishes go into “thermal shutdown” once they hit 122° Fahrenheit

#402

Post by AngryData »

jazzyjackson wrote: post #276
swiley wrote: post #226

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And it's not like 4g hotspots and old cell phones don't overheat either.

Yes, my iPhone went into thermal shutdown sitting by the pool on a 90 degree day but I don’t see a hacker news discussion on it…

Your iphones primary environment isn't outside under the sun for half of every day of the year though either.

Re: Starlink dishes go into “thermal shutdown” once they hit 122° Fahrenheit

#403

Post by birdyrooster »

c_o_n_v_e_x wrote: post #380
birdyrooster wrote: post #326

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which is what Google does in at least one of its data centers.

Is that for condensation control or because you're hitting the low end of your temp range?

It’s some data center in Nordic region, and during winter it gets so cold the servers can’t heat the place.

Re: Starlink dishes go into “thermal shutdown” once they hit 122° Fahrenheit

#404

Post by admax88q »

awesomeusername wrote: post #375
shaklee3 wrote: post #366

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Speaking from experience in this same industry, this is the wrong way to look at it. They significant amount of engineering goes in to designing the ground systems such that it can tolerate all different types of environments. Currently with Starlink you are only seeing probably less than 5% of the environments that it would be rolled out in. This is mainly due to how they are targeting RDOF areas to appease the gove…

Preemptive thermal shutdown at this temp doesn't mean the units aren't designed to handle much higher. It means at this stage in the beta program they aren't ready to push the envelope with customer deployed hardware. I always back off from the maximum limits for the gear I design then after years in the field and proven reliability you can remotely update it and push things a bit. And that's in production. This is b…

This shouldn't even be considered "pushing the envelope" it's not that hot.

Re: Starlink dishes go into “thermal shutdown” once they hit 122° Fahrenheit

#405

Post by AngryData »

newsclues wrote: post #73
andrewmcwatters wrote: post #6

I’m always surprised how poor engineering gets exposed in products I purchase being an Arizona resident. No, failing at 122F is not acceptable. If your hardware is exposed to outside conditions, it should operate easily below 32F, and well above 140F. Considering that phones can operate below 0F and near 122F, that’s embarrassingly bad. Same thing in vehicles. If you’re driving consistently at interstate speeds, you…

It’s not a safety issue like car regulation, engineering choices have costs. Just because it doesn’t work in your environment doesn’t mean that it’s not suitable elsewhere and the burden of spec changes for your climate may make the cost go up for people elsewhere who don’t have the same requirements

Where is it suitable then? I expect higher temps on roof of the farthest northern borders of the US.

Re: Starlink dishes go into “thermal shutdown” once they hit 122° Fahrenheit

#406

Post by DevKoala »

MobiusHorizons wrote: post #401
blhack wrote: post #154

Starlink is in beta. The entire purpose of the beta is to find stuff like this. They found something, and I'm sure that the next iteration of this before it goes to mass market will account for it. You're just seeing the system work.

The _service_ is in Beta, but they are still selling a product to consumers, which means they are expected to follow normal engineering practies. This type of mistake is simply failing to meet best practices. I think it is roughly the hardware equivalent of using 3DES encryption, storing passwords in plain text, or allowing SQL injection. When you sell a device to consumers one of the considerations you have to consi…

The reception hardware is the front end of an amazing aerospace engineering effort. Honestly, I am not worried at all, since these issues will get ironed out in new iterations of the hardware.

I am more interested in seeing the service achieve streaming latencies required for video games and trading. The day that happens, I have no need to live near a city anymore.

Re: Starlink dishes go into “thermal shutdown” once they hit 122° Fahrenheit

#407

Post by AngryData »

smoldesu wrote: post #139
11thEarlOfMar wrote: post #8

Parting Shot: "To all beta testers using Starlink this summer, better come up with a dish heat management system or else face no connectivity. Not surprising, considering this is a company owned by Elon Musk."

"all beta testers" is a bit broad. I live in Michigan, and our highest recorded temperature is still 10 degrees lower than the point at which the dish would shut off. Maybe certain users should pay attention, but most beta testers were in northern latitudes to boot, so it's a little more nuanced than that.

Sure, if you expect your satellite to be in the shade and not sitting on a rooftop which easily hits 140F+ multiple times per year in Michigan.

Re: Starlink dishes go into “thermal shutdown” once they hit 122° Fahrenheit

#408

Post by MobiusHorizons »

stagger87 wrote: post #194
new_realist wrote: post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This flaw was known to SpaceX before the beta began; SpaceX has publicly said the dishes are only certified to 104° Fahrenheit. Musk prefers to ship known broken products in the name of velocity, and out of a sociopathic contempt for the consumer. It’s happened to me more than once.

Is it even fair to call it a 'flaw' or 'broken' if they advertise the limitations? Almost all electronics will have some operational temperature range depending on power consumed and cooling available. Is there even active cooling on the unit?

As far as I can tell it's not advertised publicly. For instance it's not in the FAQ on the starlink website (although considerations about snow are). I was unable to find a PDF of the booklet that comes in the box though, so maybe it's in that.

Re: Starlink dishes go into “thermal shutdown” once they hit 122° Fahrenheit

#409

Post by rddbs »

runarberg wrote: post #298
babesh wrote: post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The link is mostly a honeypot for Elon Musk haters. I wonder if they have bothered looking at the operating temperatures of other satellite Internet dishes? A simple search will net you heating and cooling devices for satellite dishes. If you face more extreme temperatures, you need only go buy a heating and cooling unit. http://www.dishcamo.com/dish_heater.htm

An Elon Musk hater here: Starlink provides an excellent example of a deeper problem I see with new technology vs. traditional infrastructure. We know how to do broadband in rural places. We do it all over the planet. We simply tax income and spend it on infrastructure. Elon Musk (and the likes) see an opportunity to disrupt this simple answer and make money selling a different unproven solution that has the potential…

It’s hard to fault SpaceX for realizing a market opportunity here. If they can bring decent Internet to rural areas who don’t currently have broadband access, that’s just mutually beneficial for SpaceX and those customers.

When (if) those customers ever get broadband access by additional infrastructure investment, SpaceX will need to find a way to provide better value. I’m not sure I understand how this is a bad thing.

Re: Starlink dishes go into “thermal shutdown” once they hit 122° Fahrenheit

#410

Post by oarsinsync »

MobiusHorizons wrote: post #356
eganist wrote: post #291

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Deliberately going forward with something in spite of knowing for certain that it's not fit for purpose is called engineering malfeasance, not arrogance. An argument can be made for both. Malfeasance in that it was a significant and potentially catastrophic engineering tradeoff due to unknown failure modes, and arrogant in that the decision valued company vision over potential consumer safety risks as well as over…

+1. This is something software engineers (of which I am one) often miss-understand about other engineering disciplines. You can totally ship software that you know will run into problems down the line, because you can reasonably expect to solve those challenges and ship updates before they come into play. But when you sell someone a durable good that is expected to last 10-20 years (eg a car) there are a whole host o…

> This is something software engineers (of which I am one) often miss-understand about other engineering disciplines. You can totally ship software that you know will run into problems down the line ... because people often have insanely low expectations of how well software will work.

I feel like this is the self fulfilling prophecy. We definitely didn’t use to ship software we knew would break, because we literally shipped it on disks, and delivering updates was hard.

The internet has been good for many many things. Software reliability hasn’t been one of them.

Post reply on HN