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HK's Apple Daily raided by 500 officers over national security law

reuters.com

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Re: HK's Apple Daily raided by 500 officers over national security law

#241

Earlier quoted context omitted.

China is beyond playing 'catch up'. They might not be making the world's best software or jet engines, but they are making their own innovations in a wide variety of areas. I don't think they will ever become the export powerhouse like the US, but we will see them move up the chain. A lot of the low-level R&D in products already comes from China. Also - the Chinese will put up with authoritarian culture because 1) th…

> China is beyond playing 'catch up'. They might not be making the world's best software or jet engines, but they are making their own innovations in a wide variety of areas. Can you point to some specific examples of significant technological innovations created in China in recent years? Or technology areas in which China is the world leader? There are still a lot of areas in which China is playing "catch-up" – semi…

5G, consumer finance and marketplaces, AI for many applications including traffic automation, high speed rail etc..

In some areas, they may not be so far ahead in key tech, but they are further ahead in operationalising it.

California can't build a single fast train, while China is laying down more rail than anyone in history in a very short period of time.

Soon they will start building commercial aircraft and wipe out Boeing and Airbus in everything but domestic markets.

The only two areas I think they will have difficult is with chips, and jet engines.

For most other things, the 'product' and 'operation' is just as much or more important than the 'key research'.

It doesn't matter if the US researchers 'published the paper' if China can take it to market to the 'rest of the world' 10x more quickly.

Re: HK's Apple Daily raided by 500 officers over national security law

#242
post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

China are probably judging the chances of a US response based on the response when Assad breached POTUS’ red line: nothing.

I hate Xi but what exactly do you want the US to do other than a strongly worded proclamation?

war! Do you think peaceful protest will stop mafia? Will peaceful protest stop Nazi? Before 1984 come to western, China need to be stopped.

Re: HK's Apple Daily raided by 500 officers over national security law

#243

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> China is beyond playing 'catch up'. They might not be making the world's best software or jet engines, but they are making their own innovations in a wide variety of areas. Can you point to some specific examples of significant technological innovations created in China in recent years? Or technology areas in which China is the world leader? There are still a lot of areas in which China is playing "catch-up" – semi…

5G, consumer finance and marketplaces, AI for many applications including traffic automation, high speed rail etc.. In some areas, they may not be so far ahead in key tech, but they are further ahead in operationalising it. California can't build a single fast train, while China is laying down more rail than anyone in history in a very short period of time. Soon they will start building commercial aircraft and wipe o…

> California can't build a single fast train, while China is laying down more rail than anyone in history in a very short period of time.

The US has had high-speed rail since the 1960s (Metroliner service, now the Acela Express), in the same decade that the technology was introduced in Japan and France. The failure of the technology to see further adoption in the US is due to politics, economics, competition from alternative transport modes, etc, not due to any purely technological issues. China's lead in implementation of high-speed rail is due to a political decision to invest in deploying it, not because China has any significant lead in the underlying technology.

> Soon they will start building commercial aircraft and wipe out Boeing and Airbus in everything but domestic markets.

Comac hasn't wiped Airbus and Boeing out yet. That is surely their aim but time will tell whether they actually manage to achieve it. Their main customer base is Chinese airlines, who will follow the CCP’s instructions in buying local. Comac will likely have some success in Africa and parts of Asia, but is unlikely to challenge Airbus and Boeing's lock on major first-world air carriers. The US is unlikely to allow US airlines to buy from Comac, and will encourage allied governments to apply the same policy.

Re: HK's Apple Daily raided by 500 officers over national security law

#244
post #208
post #25

Well deserved. Apple Daily is not pro democrazy but pro-chaos. It routinely manufatures fake news and rumors that only matched by the mainstream fake news. I'm all for pro democrazy. But there is a clear line between pushing a democratic agenda for the benefit of Hong Kong people and that of provoking dissidents at any opportunity possible with whatever means possible, to foster agendas by local tycoons and foreign i…

> Well deserved. Apple Daily is not pro democrazy but pro-chaos. It routinely manufatures fake news and rumors that only matched by the mainstream fake news. Whereas the chinese dictatorship is a bastion of transparency, honesty and democracy?

Where did I state that? Or is this whole fuss just another imagined adversary against China of the US crusader mentality?

Re: HK's Apple Daily raided by 500 officers over national security law

#245

My hope is, just as it's commonplace for Chinese people to learn English, it becomes commonplace for Westerners to learn Mandarin. Only once we can communicate can we start to break through cultural and ideological barriers. It would be impossible to stop the flood of readily consumable Western Mandarin media and culture. Unfortunately I think too many would see learning Mandarin as China winning a culture war, inste…

I definitely think there should be more cultural exchange, but as to your "missionary" plan of attack, it doesn't really work like that. If you really want to alter China having this fantasy that you're simply better than they are all you need is for them to see it will not help.

Many Chinese people already speak English, have lived and travelled overseas, but "dangerous" Western ideas have not penetrated into and changed their culture. The reason is not because: "the CPC controls it", it's because people Chinese people are very proud of who they are, and they accept the CPC is doing the right thing. Not meaning 100% agreement with the government -- it regularly bends to the will of the people to cool their anger when it's done something that didn't work.

Somewhat related to your point: I think people should definitely engage with China more, rather than just the biased hologram of China presented in Western media. That's good for everyone, whatever your goal is.

The culture bias goes both ways, and there's probably people who hope Westerners don't get a clear idea of China, and don't want them to learn Mandarin and engage more, because they're afraid of "Chinese ideas" penetrating and "expropriating" (to use your term) their culture and control.

Re: HK's Apple Daily raided by 500 officers over national security law

#246

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I may be typical but it's nuts. Send your secret police to harass your critics whenever an important date is coming up.

Technically, it was 500 uniformed officers, and not the secret police (which in this case would be the MSS).

Well it's more complex now. There is a special unit for NSL matters, and the NSL permitted the state agencies to openly operate in HK (they were thankfully already operating but not openly), but I think it's mostly done with the coordination of the NSL unit, which is also connected to police. So probably some of the people in the raid were staff from the NSL unit.

https://www.scmp.com/news/hong-kong/law-and-crime/article/30...

Re: HK's Apple Daily raided by 500 officers over national security law

#247
post #3

This is another nail in the coffin of the Hong Kong we knew and loved… I was a resident for many years, I witnessed the peaceful protests of 2014, I witnessed horrifying wanton violence in 2019, I witnessed the rapid destruction of the freest laissez faire city state in the world. Above all I feel great sadness for the people of Hong Kong. The CCP cannot tolerate any dissenting voices as a matter of preserving their…

I shared your sadness at the time and have lived also there a lot over the last 10 years, including when the FOO was going to be debated in June 2019, triggering the unrest. All this is actually a good thing if you love HK. Apple Daily peddled a lot of divisive fake news, doomscrolling and rumors that 'fake justified' the violence in 2019 - 2020. Slightly more real politic take: having provided a useful pretext for the long overdue NSL, they are shut down.

It's not about dissent. Dissent is useful. It's about narratives that go against the country, sovereignty and threaten security. CPC has no total grip on power. It has many internal factions jostling for power, and > 90% of the population are not party members. That's why it is so sensitive to disturbances, because it's a constant struggle to build something that lasts.

HK is not crushed and silenced, it is liberated from violence and chaos, and empowered to build a new future, if only its youth will take the responsibility and do something constructive to that end. It has not been 'caught off guard' by the 'speed'. The NSL was supposed to have been implemented after the handover, over 20 years ago, and local media and people actively provoked risks to country, sovereignty and security, through 2019-2020 thus providing a pretext for NSL promulgation. Even so, it took more than a year of, as you say, "horrifying wanton violence, where we witnessed the rapid destruction of the freest laissez faire city state in the world", for NSL to arrive.

It's not freedom that was destroyed tho, unless you consider 'freedom to violence and chaos' as freedom. It was a required-by-the-Basic-Law long-overdue legal-loophole that was ultimately the thing that was destroyed by all that violence, and, tragically a few people's lives who suffered terrible injuries and death. Maybe one day they can be remembered as important people who contributed, however unwittingly, to ushering in a new era of peace and prosperity in HK. To the new decade!

Re: HK's Apple Daily raided by 500 officers over national security law

#248

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There are decades of polling, analysis of polling methodology by western NGOs and institutions to support these findings. Polling put Hillary at 98% chance of winning and she still lost. Unless you support the conspiracy theories that Russia hacked the election. It’s not hidden knowledge that a lot of Chinese people are scared to say anything bad.

This is 30+ years of polling showing consistent trend with methodologies scrutinized by multiple parties. And since when are statistics of approval ratings comparable to US election polling? >It’s not hidden knowledge that a lot of Chinese people are scared to say anything bad. Because that's not actual knowledge so much as conspiratorial thinking and lazy propaganda. PRC citizens criticize with impunity frequently,…

Oh please. Local protests in china always result in police brutality and arrests. Just a few weeks ago there was video footage of students protesting the changes to their degrees sitting on steps and the police hitting them. Let’s not try and pretend people are not scared to go against the norm. The vast majority of PRC you talk to outside of china will tell you they absolutely love their country and hate the ccp. Don’t pretend that sentiment doesn’t exist inside china for the vast majority of good people suffering at the hands of the ccp.

Re: HK's Apple Daily raided by 500 officers over national security law

#249
post #239

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It was late. PRC scholars warned new HK generations would culturally drift 10+ years ago. The fact that HK has existed in a national security state of exception for 20+ years, while simultaneously operating as a western spy hub outside of Chinese purview is fundamentally an untenable situation that no sane country should accede to. Reality is PRC who has always had FULL legal authority over issues of foreign policy u…

> It was late. > PRC scholars warned new HK generations would culturally drift 10+ years ago. Data suggests that the drift of HK generations [1] in the past two decades are swayed by what happened in China: Hong Kong people identified themselves more as Chinese during 2008 (especially during the Beijing Olympics), less so after being denied universal suffrage despite promises in the Basic Law (the Umbrella Movement i…

Breakdown by demographics and shift in "HKer" identity is driven by 30s and below [0], i.e. the generations influenced by reintroduction of political education leading up to handover. Curriculum under colonial rule was much more apolitical. Clear trajectory of influence. Most countries underling decolonization do not promote politics of their colonizers. PRC allowed this arrangement to persist under 1C2S for as long as tenable, but last 10 years demonstrated those who anticipated blowback were prescient.

[0] https://www.economist.com/img/b/1280/935/90/sites/default/fi...

>perceived security (of the party)

Hundreds of terrorist's attacks in XinJiang, Tibetans being weaponized by CIA for decades, HK being vulnerable spyhub into PRC activities... none of this is perceived. XJ/Tibet was left relatively alone by old oblast model and sheer inability for poor PRC to project influence, HK had 20+ years to ratify NSL. Doing nothing failed.

>not pose any material threat

It's pretty charitable to assume Apple Daily had no material influence on protests. There is zero reason for HK media tycoon to coordinate with US Secretary of State / ex CIA Head during period of Sino/US tensions and have it quoted on US state department website as discussions that has material impact on PRC foreign policy [1]. Thinking otherwise is naïve. Or assuming CCP merely over reacting when they have credibly demonstrated ability to expose foreign intelligence assets. HK is spy capital of Asia after all, CCP good at catching spies and crushing foreign influence.

[1] https://2017-2021.state.gov/secretary-pompeos-meeting-with-h...

There's probably some alternative chain of events where HK met PRC half way by introducing NSL that would have opened up for some political reforms HKers wanted. No sane government would grand _more_ privileges to subjects not beholden to national security, less flaunts against it, which is an absurd arrangement in the first place.

Re: HK's Apple Daily raided by 500 officers over national security law

#250

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is 30+ years of polling showing consistent trend with methodologies scrutinized by multiple parties. And since when are statistics of approval ratings comparable to US election polling? >It’s not hidden knowledge that a lot of Chinese people are scared to say anything bad. Because that's not actual knowledge so much as conspiratorial thinking and lazy propaganda. PRC citizens criticize with impunity frequently,…

Oh please. Local protests in china always result in police brutality and arrests. Just a few weeks ago there was video footage of students protesting the changes to their degrees sitting on steps and the police hitting them. Let’s not try and pretend people are not scared to go against the norm. The vast majority of PRC you talk to outside of china will tell you they absolutely love their country and hate the ccp. Do…

Yes and who do they appeal to? Central government, which comports with all studies showing high satisfaction with Beijing's performance. And risk of physical protest is qualifiable different than participating in a poll, PRC folks bitch about politics via relatively cost free methods everyday.

>vast majority of PRC you talk to outside of china will tell you they absolutely love their country and hate the ccp.

Maybe if you hang with FLG crowd and base opinion off epochetimes. Apart from dissidents or minorities who actually suffered repression which are the minority, the vast majority of mainland diaspora acknowledge central gov is what made modern PRC great, even if begrudgingly. Of course negative sentiment towards government exists... 5% against central gov as data shows. Everyone, everywhere bitches about politics, local and central, difference is PRC citizens overwhelmingly feels central gov is performing well. And in context of national approval, one evaluates based on performance of central gov like top executive branches / politburo members. Again this is consensus of 30 years of polling that's been scrutinized every which way by western institutions.

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