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After 50 years of the war on drugs, 'what good is it doing for us?'

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Re: After 50 years of the war on drugs, 'what good is it doing for us?'

#331

Post by smsm42 »

gobrewers14 wrote: post #252
ApolloFortyNine wrote: post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>If that isn't just the perfect description of politics in the US, I don't know what is. I don't know what your political ideology has to be to think the War on Drugs is a good thing, after all the money wasted, all the lives lost, all the people pointlessly locked up for things half the country can now do openly and legally. Well it does sound like you're equating the War on Drugs to the War on Marijuana. There are…

>There are other substances that most people really don't think should be accessible to everyone This is not how a free society operates. I choose what I put into my body and not you or anyone else. If doing so causes me to commit a crime, then punish that crime, but banning drugs because "most people" don't like them is not freedom. If you don't like them, then don't do them. >Is it even possible to be a responsible…

> I choose what I put into my body and not you or anyone else.

Unfortunately, the US public and the US government never accepted this principle. Practically everything you put in your body - at least in the US - has to be approved by the government. Sometimes by several branches of it. Food, drink, medicine, whether you swallow it, inject it, smoke it or rub it in - the government has its say in it. In 20 states you can't even legally drink raw milk, and in those that allow it in principle, require you to jump through a lot of hoops to achieve it. Such is the reality of the nanny state, and unfortunately the US public - the Land of the Free - is largely completely OK with it and would never vote to remove it.

Re: After 50 years of the war on drugs, 'what good is it doing for us?'

#332

Post by piva00 »

eitland wrote: post #327
brokenmachine wrote: post #317

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Most countries keeps drugs illegal without sending addicts to jail. This has to be a joke, right? Which countries?

Norway doesn't sendt addicts to jail for addiction as far as I know. (But will sometimes send addicts to jail for dealing drugs or for stealing to finance their drug use.)

Norway has passed legislation to decriminalise drugs in small quantities for usage [1].

[1] https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-02-19/norway-to...

Re: After 50 years of the war on drugs, 'what good is it doing for us?'

#333

Post by piva00 »

smsm42 wrote: post #328
tetranomiga wrote: post #23

> On Tuesday, two House Democrats introduced legislation that would decriminalize all drugs in the U.S., shifting the national response to a public health model. The measure appears to have zero chance of passage. If that isn't just the perfect description of politics in the US, I don't know what is. I don't know what your political ideology has to be to think the War on Drugs is a good thing, after all the money was…

Unfortunately, a lot of people oppose legalization of drugs. Even marijuana - a drug with zero addictive potential and being massively recreationally used for generations, including by prominent public figures, without any serious ill effects - only slowly gains ground to be allowed to be used medically (that's while much more dangerous substances are actively used medically and nobody has a problem with that). 36 st…

> I don't think it's "corporate stooges or obstructionist trolls" - people are just profoundly ignorant in the matter and are unwilling to change their minds about it

People are kept profoundly ignorant in the matter. That's what I hate the most about the War on Drugs, people are kept from being educated on them, learning about the real dangers, instead it's just FUD and when young people discover they were lied to and experiment with drugs they have very little knowledge of the risks.

Re: After 50 years of the war on drugs, 'what good is it doing for us?'

#334

Post by LordKano »

MuffinFlavored wrote: post #27
LordKano wrote: post #11

It's helping law enforcement maintain high budgets. The drug war fuels the violence of the drug trade and that violence requires the police be well equipped to handle it.

What's a realistic alternative? What's it going to take for the US to mimic a legality stance towards drugs like Portugal's overnight?

We could decriminalize marijuana today and watch what happens.

That would free up over 80% of the DEA's budget to go after meth and heroin.

Re: After 50 years of the war on drugs, 'what good is it doing for us?'

#335

Post by lr4444lr »

netizen-936824 wrote: post #324
lr4444lr wrote: post #314

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, but we could start making them pay more for their airline tickets.

I don't care about the airlines, they're increasing medical costs for the whole system. Obese people have a greater incidence of injury and illness than the non obese population. When the percentage of obese people increases, it furthers the strain on the medical system. This ends up increasing costs and wait times while decreasing quality of service.

You're not wrong, but causality is REALLY hard. What about the obese person who got that way from taking prescribed corticosteroids for a malady that was not his fault?

What about people who got that way before they turned 18 because their parents fed them junk every day, and the window of puberty had closed?

What about alcoholics who are compulsively drinking their calories?

I know there are a lot of people who are just lazy and stupid, but good luck proving that to legal satisfaction.

Re: After 50 years of the war on drugs, 'what good is it doing for us?'

#336

Post by skinkestek »

piva00 wrote: post #332
eitland wrote: post #327

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Norway doesn't sendt addicts to jail for addiction as far as I know. (But will sometimes send addicts to jail for dealing drugs or for stealing to finance their drug use.)

Norway has passed legislation to decriminalise drugs in small quantities for usage [1]. [1] https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-02-19/norway-to...

Originally there was a much better proposal by Høgre ( literally "Right", probably best translated as "Conservatives") but it was shot down by Arbeiderpartiet ("Worker's Party" / "Labour" depending on how literally you want to translate it.)

If anyone find it more than a bit ironic then we agree.

Re: After 50 years of the war on drugs, 'what good is it doing for us?'

#337

Post by cactus2093 »

smsm42 wrote: post #329
cactus2093 wrote: post #213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I don't know what your political ideology has to be to think the War on Drugs is a good thing This is quite a straw man, not wanting to decriminalize all drugs is not the same as thinking the War on Drugs is a good thing. (And it's not like there is one particular policy that on its own constitutes the "War on Drugs", so this is a very vague statement anyway). It's also interesting to me that in many other argument…

TBH, SF has so many reasons for "horrible outcomes" that I don't think putting it on the opiates' supposed legality is fair. I mean, that's the place where it's legal to rob Walgreens, I don't think opiates did that.

Why wouldn’t those things be related?

I’m actually not sure how anyone knows this for sure, I haven’t seen the evidence first hand. But according to our board of supervisors 80% of the Walgreens robberies are tied to organized crime. The gangs get money and power from selling drugs that are decriminalized, and then find new ways to make more money like robbing stores.

Also, the same line of thinking that doesn’t think you should penalize the addict for doing something wrong like taking drugs in the first place, is easily extended to also saying we that robbing a store is a minor offense and we shouldn’t penalize anybody for that either.

Re: After 50 years of the war on drugs, 'what good is it doing for us?'

#338

Post by cactus2093 »

netizen-936824 wrote: post #322
cactus2093 wrote: post #303

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's also a hard sell right now based on the catastrophic failure of US public health policies during the pandemic. Public health systems have shown they can do a pretty good job given a miracle vaccine to work with. Short of that, not so much. And unfortunately we don't yet have a shot that cures drug abuse. A little more specifically, I don't think the lack of availability of rehab programs is what is the problem…

Well currently people are denied treatment and resources altogether if they have an addiction. That is a massive problem

What do you mean? There are free treatment resources available for homeless/poor drug addicts to get clean. But many people are never going to make the choice to do so.

Re: After 50 years of the war on drugs, 'what good is it doing for us?'

#339

Post by gobrewers14 »

handoflixue wrote: post #283
gobrewers14 wrote: post #252

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>There are other substances that most people really don't think should be accessible to everyone This is not how a free society operates. I choose what I put into my body and not you or anyone else. If doing so causes me to commit a crime, then punish that crime, but banning drugs because "most people" don't like them is not freedom. If you don't like them, then don't do them. >Is it even possible to be a responsible…

As a society we've already concluded that it's okay to prioritize safety over freedom, as long as the tradeoff is sufficiently profitable: we have seatbelt laws, we did lockdowns during the pandemic, and you can be involuntarily committed for mental health. I think a much better argument is to point at countries that decriminalized drugs and didn't see an increase in crime. If legalizing marijuana resulted in a 10x r…

Just a few thoughts.

> I think a much better argument is to point at countries that decriminalized drugs and didn't see an increase in crime.

I agree.

> we've already concluded that it's okay to prioritize safety over freedom

Who is "we"? A majority telling a minority "we" know what's best for you at the expense of your freedom is very dangerous rhetoric.

> we have seatbelt laws

In this analogy, I would argue drugs = cars and seatbelts would be some safety measure on where drugs could be used (like no heroin injecting within 100 ft of a school, etc...) which seems like a reasonable restriction. But banning cars because a majority of the population thinks they are dangerous and people cannot drive them responsibly would be absurd.

Re: After 50 years of the war on drugs, 'what good is it doing for us?'

#340

Post by specialist »

cactus2093 wrote: post #338
netizen-936824 wrote: post #322

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well currently people are denied treatment and resources altogether if they have an addiction. That is a massive problem

What do you mean? There are free treatment resources available for homeless/poor drug addicts to get clean. But many people are never going to make the choice to do so.

Defeatism is so exhausting. Every one already knows that every thing sucks. Trying is better than not trying. Unless you have some better ideas. Please tell.
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