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HK's Apple Daily raided by 500 officers over national security law

reuters.com

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Re: HK's Apple Daily raided by 500 officers over national security law

#71

Post by ProfessorLayton »

kurthr wrote: post #56
ProfessorLayton wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>The right to govern extends from the consent of the governed. First I must say that what's happening to HK is tragic, and I very much empathize with their situation, and am not at all in agreement with how the CCP is handling this. But this is quite the take! I don't know if you're US-based, but by that logic if the Native Americans held a referendum, they would have most certainly not allowed the U.S. government to…

Yes, that is why people feel that what was done to Native Americans was wrong. By which I mean that Americans believe it was wrong. It was also 200 years ago, and no explicit treaty had been signed to another world power granting them rights (the French and Spanish sold them out). Unless you think it was right and the Big Stick is right, then HK is more than tragic. It is a violation of international treaty and of hu…

No, I do not think Big Stick is right.

The U.S. has a whole history with Latin America that was a lot less than 200 years ago. I'd argue that many outside of the U.S believe this policy isn't a thing of the past.

>French and Spanish sold them out

I don't find the suggestion that those that were subjugated needed rights granted to them by outside groups, including those that colonized them to begin with.

Again, I'm in agreement that this is wrong, but I also believe that "Rules for thee but not for me" is not a very productive type of diplomacy either.

Re: HK's Apple Daily raided by 500 officers over national security law

#72

Post by asdweasdawe »

jquery wrote: post #53
adventured wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are no actions the US, EU, Japan & Co. can collective take that will alter China's political system from the outside. It's why whenever people talk about ganging up on China, they're always extremely vague about it. That's because it's entirely bunk. Do something! What? Something! Do a thing! Which thing? The thing! It's identical to bumper stickers that (used to) say: Save Tibet, it's largely empty virtue sign…

So what’s your big plan? Sounds like fatalism to me, and I’m not buying it. China is just the latest authoritarian government to look unstoppable from the outside just like the USSR once did. It does not have the internal agility necessary to thrive long term. Already China’s diplomatic “wolf warriors” are making fools of China on the international stage, and China is increasingly unable to pragmatically adjust. This…

I feel like different people have different views depending how close they are geographically or financially to China. I don't think the diplomatic "wolf warriors" has any effect on anything tangible. It's not like international stage laughing has slowed down China's geographical expansion so far.

I doubt it'll be the doom of the West anytime soon but it's not going to be pretty for countries near China in the next 20 years. For countries next to China, it's probably about how bad the terms can be, how much land/sea they can keep* and whether that comes later or sooner. The big plan is to help those countries develop and slow down China influence's expansion.

I do think as the population become more educated, more liberal values will take hold so maybe more Western education can help. However, Chinese government control is quite vast and they are flexible as well. China is also doing very well economically so it's easier to turn a blind eye to stuffs.

* One aspect that can delay this is the Freedom of navigation operations https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_navigation#FONOPs_i...

Re: HK's Apple Daily raided by 500 officers over national security law

#73

Post by magicsmoke »

kurthr wrote: post #56
ProfessorLayton wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>The right to govern extends from the consent of the governed. First I must say that what's happening to HK is tragic, and I very much empathize with their situation, and am not at all in agreement with how the CCP is handling this. But this is quite the take! I don't know if you're US-based, but by that logic if the Native Americans held a referendum, they would have most certainly not allowed the U.S. government to…

Yes, that is why people feel that what was done to Native Americans was wrong. By which I mean that Americans believe it was wrong. It was also 200 years ago, and no explicit treaty had been signed to another world power granting them rights (the French and Spanish sold them out). Unless you think it was right and the Big Stick is right, then HK is more than tragic. It is a violation of international treaty and of hu…

If that's the case we would see an effort to reverse those wrongs by reverting all the economic benefit that America gained at the expense of Native Americans. All the land and lives taken, and all the wealth and prosperity they could have generated. The total sum if repaid would probably erase a significant part of America from the map.

So it was wrong. But clearly not wrong enough to warrant erasing America and its wealth from existence. Saying sorry and expressing regret is cheap. Actual action is expensive.

As an aside, I wonder what the psychological effects are from growing up in a nation where the public discourse is all about how the nation was unjustly founded. If a significant part of the next generation believes that America's historical foundations are rotten to the core and that its existence is a tragedy, what happens next?

Re: HK's Apple Daily raided by 500 officers over national security law

#75

Post by xvector »

Wolfenstein98k wrote: post #20

Hong Kong is dead, and the CCP killed it. Daily reminder that the Chinese Government should never ever be trusted. China agreed not to touch Hong Kong's system politically or economically until at least 2047. They couldn't manage even half of that, and there are now many Hong Kongers sitting in jail for the "crime" of supporting democracy in Hong Kong (not even China!), which was made illegal by the CCP under "nation…

What are the geopolitical implications of China breaking agreements like this? I figure governments will trust the word of China even less.

Re: HK's Apple Daily raided by 500 officers over national security law

#76

Post by FpUser »

NegativeLatency wrote: post #35
alisonatwork wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What city in the USSR was equivalent to Hong Kong? I am not aware of any cities in the USSR that enjoyed freedom of the press and an independent judiciary at the level that Hong Kong did prior to the NSL crackdowns.

I have no idea but maybe west Germany?

What does west Germany have to do with Russia?

Re: HK's Apple Daily raided by 500 officers over national security law

#77

Post by pcwalton »

hohohmm wrote: post #62
artificialLimbs wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> It routinely manufatures fake news and rumors... For which there is and should be plenty of room in a functioning society that is free to voice its opinion, however "pro-chaos".

I guess even the lowest bar of news integrity is an optional choice when it comes to Hong Kong?

Universal Declaration of Human Rights, article 19: "Everyone has the right to freedom of opinion and expression; this right includes freedom to hold opinions without interference and to seek, receive and impart information and ideas through any media and regardless of frontiers."

Notice how there's no clause stating that this right is conditional on "news integrity".

Re: HK's Apple Daily raided by 500 officers over national security law

#78

Post by xster »

dcolkitt wrote: post #33
whydoibother wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> They graciously agreed to return them for China Sorry, but you can't 'graciously' return a colony. It was something they never should have had.

The right to govern extends from the consent of the governed. It's not a question of who "should" own Hong Kong based on some centuries old history. It's a question of who the people of Hong Kong choose to govern them. Had an open referendum been held in 1997, it's almost certainly the case that the citizenry would not have voted to return to the tutelage of the dictatorship in Beijing.

Sounds like a good approach. Why not put it to practice by letting China own Florida for 150 years, then see who Floridians want to join at the end of it.

Re: HK's Apple Daily raided by 500 officers over national security law

#79

Post by RcouF1uZ4gsC »

xvector wrote: post #74

And China's industry has the world by the balls, so there's not much that can be done from an external perspective to prevent this. That said, I'm not sure many nations would do anything even if China didn't have leverage over them.

Hong Kong’s fate was sealed in 1984 when the UK agreed to return it to China. And that was when China was far weaker than now, and could have been confronted at far less cost. Instead, the West got played, transferring massive capital and know-how to China while convincing themselves that economic integration would inevitably lead to greater political freedom.

Re: HK's Apple Daily raided by 500 officers over national security law

#80

Post by eloff »

xvector wrote: post #74

And China's industry has the world by the balls, so there's not much that can be done from an external perspective to prevent this. That said, I'm not sure many nations would do anything even if China didn't have leverage over them.

The best one can do is what some of the commonwealth countries, led by the UK, are doing by offering Hong Kong citizens an accelerated path to immigration.

All you can do when a ship sinks is find a life raft.

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