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HK's Apple Daily raided by 500 officers over national security law

reuters.com

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Re: HK's Apple Daily raided by 500 officers over national security law

#41

Post by neverminder »

dcolkitt wrote: post #33
whydoibother wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> They graciously agreed to return them for China Sorry, but you can't 'graciously' return a colony. It was something they never should have had.

The right to govern extends from the consent of the governed. It's not a question of who "should" own Hong Kong based on some centuries old history. It's a question of who the people of Hong Kong choose to govern them. Had an open referendum been held in 1997, it's almost certainly the case that the citizenry would not have voted to return to the tutelage of the dictatorship in Beijing.

This is something I don't understand as well. Why didn't Hong Kong choose to become an independent state when they had the chance? They could have thrived like Singapore does.

Re: HK's Apple Daily raided by 500 officers over national security law

#42

Post by jollybean »

xwolfi wrote: post #39
phyalow wrote: post #3

This is another nail in the coffin of the Hong Kong we knew and loved… I was a resident for many years, I witnessed the peaceful protests of 2014, I witnessed horrifying wanton violence in 2019, I witnessed the rapid destruction of the freest laissez faire city state in the world. Above all I feel great sadness for the people of Hong Kong. The CCP cannot tolerate any dissenting voices as a matter of preserving their…

While I agree, as a current resident, I also witnessed the insane destructive behavior of Apple Daily, who did exagerate quite a bit the situation and was far from a neutral observer. I'd even say that telling kids the police murdered 2000 people was not exactly helping them strategize rather than throw themselves in desperate waves at the police... These guys all pushed the situation towards a point of no return for…

We don't cry tears because of the kind of journalism, we cry tears because it was on some level journalism or at minimum freedom of expression and the clampdown means the same it will happen to you if you try that route.

Anyone who contradicts Putin and gets any stickiness or popularity ends up dead. You don't have to agree with Putin's antagonists to realize why that is bad.

Re: HK's Apple Daily raided by 500 officers over national security law

#44

Post by Clewza313 »

adventured wrote: post #34
makeitdouble wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the current climate if the US doesn't move nobody will (or it will just be a "look at me" gesture) Why do I think so? Because the US accumulated that unprecedented power you refer to, and Japan or GB or Canada trying anything from themselves just means they'll be pissing in the wind until the US decides to do it as well. The EU seems to me the only exception to that, but then I am not sure its majority sees a big…

There are no actions the US, EU, Japan & Co. can collective take that will alter China's political system from the outside. It's why whenever people talk about ganging up on China, they're always extremely vague about it. That's because it's entirely bunk. Do something! What? Something! Do a thing! Which thing? The thing! It's identical to bumper stickers that (used to) say: Save Tibet, it's largely empty virtue sign…

The obvious counterweight to China is India, which has a similar population and a rapidly growing economy. However, they're several decades behind China on all fronts (economy, wealth, education, infrastructure, you name it) and with Modi at the helm and COVID continuing to wreak havoc it's entirely plausible that they go into reverse gear again.

Re: HK's Apple Daily raided by 500 officers over national security law

#45

Post by jussij »

ajkdhcb2 wrote: post #16
typeformer wrote: post #4

This is tragic, the US, Japan, Canada, GB, AUS, the EU need to band together to counter China’s egregious rights abuses instead of solely pursuing their own business and national interests. They could all offer residency programs for the bright students and others that are currently suffocating there. China can’t punish all these countries together. If no one stands up Taiwan will be next to fall and then China would…

Australia has been doing raids like this for some time, they are even ahead of HK

The raids are just the tip of the iceberg, as the Australia judicial system now shares characteristics of those found in secret states like Russia.

Who would have thought in Australia someone could be prosecuted and jailed by a secret court.

That is exactly what happened to Witness J:

https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2019/nov/22/act-j...

Re: HK's Apple Daily raided by 500 officers over national security law

#46

Post by jollybean »

dragonsh wrote: post #22
Wolfenstein98k wrote: post #20

Hong Kong is dead, and the CCP killed it. Daily reminder that the Chinese Government should never ever be trusted. China agreed not to touch Hong Kong's system politically or economically until at least 2047. They couldn't manage even half of that, and there are now many Hong Kongers sitting in jail for the "crime" of supporting democracy in Hong Kong (not even China!), which was made illegal by the CCP under "nation…

> Hong Kong (not even China!) Hong Kong is China since 1997 with same nationality law that's the reason its called one country and two systems. Obviously the thin layer between two system is getting thinner, because like any law, basic law can be interpreted to suite the needs of how the two systems should be. I believe all of this is happening given China does not want to be another USSR. Hong Kong was used as a lau…

"basic law can be interpreted to suite the needs of how the two systems should be."

There is no independent judiciary in China, the law is whatever the CCP wants it to be.

In this case, they didn't like what some newspaper was doing, so they had it shut down, and put out the PR spin though thought would work best. That's it.

FYI the 'violent protests' were not very violent, and definitely favourable to the loss of freedoms with the current regime.

One option would be to let the citizens of HK make the decision on those things.

Re: HK's Apple Daily raided by 500 officers over national security law

#47

Post by Siira »

adventured wrote: post #34
makeitdouble wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the current climate if the US doesn't move nobody will (or it will just be a "look at me" gesture) Why do I think so? Because the US accumulated that unprecedented power you refer to, and Japan or GB or Canada trying anything from themselves just means they'll be pissing in the wind until the US decides to do it as well. The EU seems to me the only exception to that, but then I am not sure its majority sees a big…

There are no actions the US, EU, Japan & Co. can collective take that will alter China's political system from the outside. It's why whenever people talk about ganging up on China, they're always extremely vague about it. That's because it's entirely bunk. Do something! What? Something! Do a thing! Which thing? The thing! It's identical to bumper stickers that (used to) say: Save Tibet, it's largely empty virtue sign…

You’re bullshitting, as evidenced by how hard China pushed against Trump’s changes. One doesn’t need to crush China to change its incentive gradient. Besides, worst case scenario, the non-Chinese countries can isolate their economies from China to at least shield their own autonomy.

Re: HK's Apple Daily raided by 500 officers over national security law

#48

Post by 0x0nyandesu »

alisonatwork wrote: post #32
dragonsh wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Hong Kong (not even China!) Hong Kong is China since 1997 with same nationality law that's the reason its called one country and two systems. Obviously the thin layer between two system is getting thinner, because like any law, basic law can be interpreted to suite the needs of how the two systems should be. I believe all of this is happening given China does not want to be another USSR. Hong Kong was used as a lau…

What city in the USSR was equivalent to Hong Kong? I am not aware of any cities in the USSR that enjoyed freedom of the press and an independent judiciary at the level that Hong Kong did prior to the NSL crackdowns.

No however ironically Russians today enjoy vastly more freedom than Chinese citizens.

Re: HK's Apple Daily raided by 500 officers over national security law

#49

Post by ProfessorLayton »

dcolkitt wrote: post #33
whydoibother wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> They graciously agreed to return them for China Sorry, but you can't 'graciously' return a colony. It was something they never should have had.

The right to govern extends from the consent of the governed. It's not a question of who "should" own Hong Kong based on some centuries old history. It's a question of who the people of Hong Kong choose to govern them. Had an open referendum been held in 1997, it's almost certainly the case that the citizenry would not have voted to return to the tutelage of the dictatorship in Beijing.

>The right to govern extends from the consent of the governed.

First I must say that what's happening to HK is tragic, and I very much empathize with their situation, and am not at all in agreement with how the CCP is handling this.

But this is quite the take! I don't know if you're US-based, but by that logic if the Native Americans held a referendum, they would have most certainly not allowed the U.S. government to form on their land.

This is simply a case of Big Stick Ideology, something the U.S. is quite familiar with [1]

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Stick_ideology

[EDIT: No, I'm not suggesting that this is right, just making an observation]

Re: HK's Apple Daily raided by 500 officers over national security law

#50

Post by acomjean »

alisonatwork wrote: post #32
dragonsh wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Hong Kong (not even China!) Hong Kong is China since 1997 with same nationality law that's the reason its called one country and two systems. Obviously the thin layer between two system is getting thinner, because like any law, basic law can be interpreted to suite the needs of how the two systems should be. I believe all of this is happening given China does not want to be another USSR. Hong Kong was used as a lau…

What city in the USSR was equivalent to Hong Kong? I am not aware of any cities in the USSR that enjoyed freedom of the press and an independent judiciary at the level that Hong Kong did prior to the NSL crackdowns.

I think the post might have been referencing how the USSR fractured into a lot of smaller countries.
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