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Demolishing Soviet Modernism

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Re: Demolishing Soviet Modernism

#11

Post by shakow »

TheOtherHobbes wrote: post #9
shakow wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The idea that there was this cohesive concept of "The Orient" as a Mysterious Other, waiting to be settled or tamed by the righteous West That's an interpretation I never heard. Here in France (and in Europe as far as I know), Orientalism is an artistic current from the 18th to the early 20th focused on taking inspiration from the faraway, exotic, attractive Eastern cultures. To make a crude comparison, it would be…

Considering that all of Africa and parts of the Middle East were partitioned and colonised by the European powers in the late 19th century, and India had been colonised much earlier, and China had been pacified by the Opium Wars (and still hasn't forgiven the UK for those) I'm not sure how you can say there was no interest in settling or taming. The artistic cliches were froth that made these distant locations somewh…

Because you're conflating a geopolitical current (colonialism & imperialism) with an artistic one (orientalism) -- in fact, the artistic current actually predates colonialism in the concerned geographical regions, with e.g. Ottoman art becoming fashionable in the 18th century or Antique Egypt fascinating Paris after Napoleon's expedition in the early 19th century.

Just like nowadays, exhibiting a taste for Vietnamese or Bengali culture doesn't imply that you are a staunch supporter of children's slavery, 19th century people fantasizing about lascivious odalisques and fierce Cheikhs or Byron writing about Transoxania doesn't have much to do with the Concessions harbours.

Re: Demolishing Soviet Modernism

#12

Post by kstenerud »

I for one will be glad to witness the demise of modern architecture, and a return to human friendliness. I'm tired of being crushed by some grand architect's great ego piece, or "utilitarian" philosophies of living spaces.

Re: Demolishing Soviet Modernism

#13

Post by smogcutter »

shakow wrote: post #8
na85 wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Orientalism is the term coined for the Euro- or America-centric views of the Eastern Hemisphere during the Soviet period and the 19th century. The idea that there was this cohesive concept of "The Orient" as a Mysterious Other, waiting to be settled or tamed by the righteous West, when in reality the "orient" was just a place populated by regular people with their own culture to be sure but perhaps not so different f…

> The idea that there was this cohesive concept of "The Orient" as a Mysterious Other, waiting to be settled or tamed by the righteous West That's an interpretation I never heard. Here in France (and in Europe as far as I know), Orientalism is an artistic current from the 18th to the early 20th focused on taking inspiration from the faraway, exotic, attractive Eastern cultures. To make a crude comparison, it would be…

I think you’re talking past each other. Parent is referencing Edward Said, but mixing in an Americanism about “taming the frontier” that doesn’t really apply. Said’s talking more about colonialism.

> Orientalism is an artistic current from the 18th to the early 20th focused on taking inspiration from the faraway, exotic, attractive Eastern cultures.

You’re not wrong, but Said’s work really changed the way that movement is generally understood.

Re: Demolishing Soviet Modernism

#14

Post by esyir »

ibotty wrote: post #7
qqtt wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Orientalism is the term coined for the Euro- or America-centric views of the Eastern Hemisphere Somewhat ironically, the "Orientalism" you are referring to is an American-centric interpretation, which doesn't really have global acceptance as a theory. Orientalism was attempted to be redefined single handedly redefined in 1978 by an American professor (Edward Said with a book of the same name). Notably, America is p…

> Europe & elsewhere use the term freely without any negative connotations. You are wrong, some do, some don't. I would debate that its reduction is usage is because of the negative connotations, but let's leave it at that. Edward Said has been hugely influential also in Europe's academia and intellectual discourse. I would also be astonished if there had been no influence in "the orient".

I'll go one step further against this idea that "oriental" is some offensive term. Where I am, smack dab in Asia, oriental is used without an issue, being included in the names of buildings and companies.

I'm betting that the "offensiveness" of the term, if it ever takes root here, would likely be a invasive American import than homegrown.

Re: Demolishing Soviet Modernism

#15

Post by shakow »

smogcutter wrote: post #13
shakow wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The idea that there was this cohesive concept of "The Orient" as a Mysterious Other, waiting to be settled or tamed by the righteous West That's an interpretation I never heard. Here in France (and in Europe as far as I know), Orientalism is an artistic current from the 18th to the early 20th focused on taking inspiration from the faraway, exotic, attractive Eastern cultures. To make a crude comparison, it would be…

I think you’re talking past each other. Parent is referencing Edward Said, but mixing in an Americanism about “taming the frontier” that doesn’t really apply. Said’s talking more about colonialism. > Orientalism is an artistic current from the 18th to the early 20th focused on taking inspiration from the faraway, exotic, attractive Eastern cultures. You’re not wrong, but Said’s work really changed the way that moveme…

> Said’s work really changed the way that movement is generally understood.

With all due respect to Said, I'm not yet willing to accept the complete redefinition of a term well-anchored in European art history for over two centuries on the basis of a book by a single American scholar -- book which is, moreover, highly debated by other academics of the field.

Re: Demolishing Soviet Modernism

#16

Post by stereolambda »

I don't know if I should be disappointed by the pretty philistine reactions here. In the MDM in Warsaw I find so satisfying the fact that monumental reliefs show office and factory workers, mothers etc. instead of political leaders or so-called great people. I'm well aware that this is Stalinist 1950s architecture but to some extent you can enjoy art in abstraction from its historical context. I would likely agree that overt references to communism should be visibly contextualized or closed in a museum.

Monumental, uncompromising modernism to me expresses the desire to boldly go, as a civilization, and conquer nature both inside and outside of us. Today this desire is very controversial for pretty much all mainstream sensibilities - but I don't think we should rob the future generations of a chance to interact with this on their own.

Re: Demolishing Soviet Modernism

#17

Post by tpm »

qqtt wrote: post #5
na85 wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Orientalism is the term coined for the Euro- or America-centric views of the Eastern Hemisphere during the Soviet period and the 19th century. The idea that there was this cohesive concept of "The Orient" as a Mysterious Other, waiting to be settled or tamed by the righteous West, when in reality the "orient" was just a place populated by regular people with their own culture to be sure but perhaps not so different f…

> Orientalism is the term coined for the Euro- or America-centric views of the Eastern Hemisphere Somewhat ironically, the "Orientalism" you are referring to is an American-centric interpretation, which doesn't really have global acceptance as a theory. Orientalism was attempted to be redefined single handedly redefined in 1978 by an American professor (Edward Said with a book of the same name). Notably, America is p…

> Europe & elsewhere use the term freely without any negative connotations.

that's not true - a friend of mine, an European academic in (east) Asian studies - told me the whole academic field in Europe considers the term outdated and incorrect.

Re: Demolishing Soviet Modernism

#18

Post by keiferski »

stereolambda wrote: post #16

I don't know if I should be disappointed by the pretty philistine reactions here. In the MDM in Warsaw I find so satisfying the fact that monumental reliefs show office and factory workers, mothers etc. instead of political leaders or so-called great people. I'm well aware that this is Stalinist 1950s architecture but to some extent you can enjoy art in abstraction from its historical context. I would likely agree th…

Disliking Soviet architecture doesn’t make one a philistine. Especially when much of it was forced upon the populace at the point of a gun.

Regarding Warsaw specifically, most of those monuments are still in existence because they didn’t depict actual people, only generic workers. There were plenty of other monuments of individual political leaders that have been torn down since the collapse of the USSR.

In any case, many of these buildings are interesting but I’m not sure I’d ascribe a positive aesthetic opinion to them. Most of the best urban design in ex-Soviet countries is in pre-Soviet cities.

Re: Demolishing Soviet Modernism

#19

Post by FooBarBizBazz »

shakow wrote: post #11
TheOtherHobbes wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Considering that all of Africa and parts of the Middle East were partitioned and colonised by the European powers in the late 19th century, and India had been colonised much earlier, and China had been pacified by the Opium Wars (and still hasn't forgiven the UK for those) I'm not sure how you can say there was no interest in settling or taming. The artistic cliches were froth that made these distant locations somewh…

Because you're conflating a geopolitical current (colonialism & imperialism) with an artistic one (orientalism) -- in fact, the artistic current actually predates colonialism in the concerned geographical regions, with e.g. Ottoman art becoming fashionable in the 18th century or Antique Egypt fascinating Paris after Napoleon's expedition in the early 19th century. Just like nowadays, exhibiting a taste for Vietnamese…

Good distinction. But that conflation is exactly the purpose of contemporary use of the word "orientalism". It makes it impossible for Westerners to engage with these cultures while maintaining social or aesthetic acceptability; intentionally, the only option left open is to sit down and shut up.

Re: Demolishing Soviet Modernism

#20

Post by shakow »

wwosik wrote: post #4

There's a good reason to demolish much of that. It is overwhelming [1] in scale very ugly and not even painting it would help much. This building on the photo of Elista is nothing to look at. But that photo from Makhachkala looks rather pretty and on a human scale. I imagine when the trees are green it must be a nice place (judging only from this one photo, don't know it IRL). [1] The Ship https://www.google.com/maps…

> It is overwhelming [1] in scale very ugly

I agree it's indeed pretty ugly, but if you want to destroy every building looking that ugly, you will have to tear down half the cities in Europe -- and probably also many other places.

Honestly, without the written cyrillic, this could be many places in e.g. France or Italy.

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