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Spatial Audio

lefsetz.com

41–50 of 138 posts

Re: Spatial Audio

#41

Related question, but does spatial audio actually send Atmos separate audio streams with positioning data to the client? How does this impact data sizes? I have listened to some of the SA samples and they sound good, but I still don't get the technology. If it's sending separate streams and spatially mixing them at the client, it's still ending up with two channels of audio, so why would it differ from normal stereo…

This article does an okay job of explaining the idea: https://appleinsider.com/articles/21/05/18/apples-spatial-au... Apparently the sound source positions will be calculated relative to the position of the iphone/ipad/mac… ..Yes, I’m guessing it will potentially greatly increase the size of audio data downloaded/streamed to the listener, as the spec. for Atmos can have up to 128 different tracks + metadata: https://…

> Yes, I’m guessing it will potentially greatly increase the size of audio data downloaded/streamed to the listener,

Most music only has say 10 instruments, so it's only a 5x worst case blowup.

And many of those instruments will be silent a lot of the time... And even when not silent, there will be a lot of easy to compress repetition. It's simply a matter of having good enough compression algorithms.

Re: Spatial Audio

#42

Just because of the sheer number of tracks there are in the world it is clear the quality here will vary wildly. I really want to hear jazz like this. Specifically trios/quartets. Even if it is not the original and I can hear each musician separately I think it would be worth it.

Highly recommend listening to Jazz in spatial. There's such nice separation between the instruments. With the head tracking in iOS 15 you can isolate stuff a little too by turning your ear towards certain sounds (a little gimmicky I'll admit but but it does let you experience parts of the track you may have missed before).

Re: Spatial Audio

#43

Just because of the sheer number of tracks there are in the world it is clear the quality here will vary wildly. I really want to hear jazz like this. Specifically trios/quartets. Even if it is not the original and I can hear each musician separately I think it would be worth it.

They have Jazz with spatial. Apple Music on android doesn't have spatial audio support annoyingly but Tidal does if your phone supports Dolby Atmos so I've been checking out a trial of that instead.

Re: Spatial Audio

#44
I'll say up front that I'm a non-audiophile, and so I'm offering my opinion from that point of view.

I find the Spatial Audio / Dolby Atmos thing weird for a number of reasons.

First, the dual branding seems clunky. "First I listened to music in mono. Then I listened to music in stereo. Then I listened to music in ____" I'd be willing to bet that even amongst people who care a lot about this stuff you'd have a hard time getting consensus about how to fill in the blank.

Second, the fact that there's a brand name attached to it at all feels wrong. One of the great things about music is its accessibility to artists as a medium: lots of great music will come from young folk in their bedrooms with cheap recording rigs. Will they pay a license fee to Dolby? There are many examples of great art that's wrapped up in proprietary technology (video games, for example) but music feels so basic to the human experience that (a) I don't want a brand name attached to it, and (b) it'll never become standard because people are always going to make recorded music without engaging Dolby. An historic example that comes to mind is Technicolor, which feels like something from the olden days. Groundbreaking in its time but no longer culturally relevant.

Third, it does indeed seem weird that this technology would be implemented by a middleman. Sometimes I'll fall in love with a song that has a lot of nuance (like a Bjork song, for example), and I'll tell someone about it, and they'll pull it up on their phone and hold the phone next to their ear, and I'll say, "well, you have to listen to it in headphones." Now I'll say, "well, you have to listen to it in headphones. Actually, this specific make and model of headphones. And also through an Apple Music subscription." (I realize I'm being hyperbolic here, but I think there's a valid point to be made about shared experience where music is concerned.)

And while I’m a fierce advocate of the idea that it’s okay for people bring their own interpretation and meaning to art – I don’t believe the artist should or can have total control over how the art is consumed – the mass remixing of all this music feels more akin to the remixing of the original Star Wars movies than it does to the restoration of a painting.

Finally, I just don’t think very many people will care. I would be willing to bet that a minority of people could pick out a Dolby Atmos song from the original, and of those that could, it seems unclear they would prefer the Atmos version. There are a hundred things I would have chosen to improve about my Apple Music listening experience before sound quality: making the navigation of the music app make any sense whatsoever, and having the AI generated “stations” not be terrible, are two examples. And I know, I know, it’s different groups of people working on different things and it’s not like they can reassign a sound engineer to rewrite the UX of the music app, but it feels like if there was a water leak above my desk in the office and the office manager’s solution was to buy me a nicer chair.

Re: Spatial Audio

#45
post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> and want to hear the music the way the original artist intended Curious how you know what the artist intended. Did they intend for the track to sound like you're at a stadium show or sitting in a small music studio with headphones on?

Or what happens with derived works? When you listen to a Coldplay song... do you follow their intent or Kraftwerk's intent? Oh no! Or music that was composed before modern audio equipment - "If Bach had known about spatial audio! I know he would have loved it" :D

Stockhausen would have been like: ‘Yo dawg…’ :)

Re: Spatial Audio

#46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This article does an okay job of explaining the idea: https://appleinsider.com/articles/21/05/18/apples-spatial-au... Apparently the sound source positions will be calculated relative to the position of the iphone/ipad/mac… ..Yes, I’m guessing it will potentially greatly increase the size of audio data downloaded/streamed to the listener, as the spec. for Atmos can have up to 128 different tracks + metadata: https://…

> Yes, I’m guessing it will potentially greatly increase the size of audio data downloaded/streamed to the listener, Most music only has say 10 instruments, so it's only a 5x worst case blowup. And many of those instruments will be silent a lot of the time... And even when not silent, there will be a lot of easy to compress repetition. It's simply a matter of having good enough compression algorithms.

Indeed - depends on the material/scope/playback quality of the track/characteristics of the compression method I guess… On the other hand, if you were to record/encode each member of a symphony orchestra separately and place them in a soundfield playing back with lossless quality? …but then you could mix them in sections, or even by rougher positional areas and have far fewer individual tracks… If it’s just one man and his knee/spoon accompaniment then… This article is informative: https://9to5mac.com/2021/05/30/apple-spatial-audio-indie-art... …also: https://professional.dolby.com/create-in-dolby-atmos-music/ from: https://professional.dolby.com/music/support-faq/ “The Renderer can operate at 48 or 96 kHz. Master files can be created at these rates and stored for archive purposes, and are then sample-rate converted to 48 kHz for encoding purposes. Keep in mind that when working at 48 kHz, the Renderer supports 128 input channels (ten bed only and 118 object/bed), whereas at 96 kHz, 64 input channels are available (ten bed only and 54 object/bed). …If you work with audio in an 88.2, 176.4, or 192 kHz session, you need to create a 48 or 96 kHz version of the session for use with the Renderer. …For music use cases, we recommend setting trim controls to zero so that your mix is preserved when played back as a 5.1 or 7.1 re-render. Additionally, to hear how encoding your Dolby Atmos mix will sound, set the spatial coding emulation element count to 16… …Objects can be mono or stereo. The sonic content of the source material and creative considerations about how that content will be reproduced in a 3D soundfield will influence the number of objects used in any given mix.”

Re: Spatial Audio

#47
post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly. This thread is mindboggling. Taste in music is purely subjective. If users enjoy listening to Spatial Audio, who are you to criticize it as a scam?

Because everyone using Apple music is forced to listen to it. Whether they like the remixes or not.

There’s actually a setting to choose

Re: Spatial Audio

#48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From what I understand, to really get spatial audio from stereo headphones, you need to use a HRTF (head-related transfer function) specific to the person. There's an open dataset of 50 different HRTFs [1] and a long video to compare them [2]. For me personally, only 2 of those 50 samples actually vaguely sound like audio is ever coming from in front of me. Left, right, and behind mostly works, but for most samples w…

You’re absolutely right that the most effective simulation would use a custom HRTF for each person, as the shape of the head, shoulders, pinnae of the ear etc etc. all play some part... There are some headphones that attempt to go some way towards this by taking pictures of/otherwise ‘scanning’ the users ear (eg. https://electronics.sony.com/360-reality-audio https://mysofa.audio/ …paper on the subject: https://www.a…

This page is really helpful: https://professional.dolby.com/music/support-faq/

Re: Spatial Audio

#49
post #16
post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I just noticed that the author wasn't using the AirPods Pro / Max which Spacial Audio was designed in tandem with. No wonder they didn't find it impressive and are calling it a scam. TBH, I'm sad I wasted my time reading such an uninformed opinion piece.

I think you're missing one of the main points, which is someone using other headphones is still getting the atmos version, but in normal stereo - and when that happens, large parts of the balance of the mix are lost as he explains in the section on What's Going On. So it's not the original track as the artist, mix engineer and masterer intended you to hear.

I don't think that's true? There's nothing special about Apple's implementation of Dolby Atmos over headphones besides the head tracking bit (and that's not needed for music) that need their headphones. If you set Dolby Atmos to "Always On" in the settings it will give you the Atmos headphones mix regardless of what headphones being used. Airpods and Beats are still just stereo headphones.

Atmos works pretty well over normal stereo headphones and I've used it for years on PC while watching supported Blu-rays.

I'm kinda peeved at Apple's lazy implementation because it's only supported on Apple devices and not devices that support Atmos and work with Apple music like a PC or Samsung Android phone.

Re: Spatial Audio

#50
Slightly related. But I’ve had single-sided deafness all my life (which means all I’ve experienced is mono audio) and now with this shift from stereo to spatial. I was wondering if some kind HN users could fill me in on what I’m missing out. (By listening to stereo tracks in mono and observing how it sounds or anything that could give me a picture of that— is it crowded? Distorted? Etc). The only pertinent study I could find on this is https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/28534734/
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