Live data from Hacker News

Senate Unanimously Approves a Bill to Make Juneteenth a Public Holiday

npr.org

291–300 of 308 posts

Re: Senate Unanimously Approves a Bill to Make Juneteenth a Public Holiday

#291
post #229

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think this is a bad faith response to the poster you're responding to.

I'm not trying to respond in bad faith; I'm pointing out, albeit by hyperbole, that "more voting" can still be anti-democratic.

"Dead people voting is a problem" That's not voting. That's absolute fraud. There's no nuance or gray area. There's no "some dead people should be allowed to vote but others shouldn't" use case.

Compare to "requiring ID will eliminate fraud": No. It eliminates some types of fraud, some of the time. It doesn't fix someone hacking a system and changing votes. It doesn't prevent someone creating fake IDs to vote. It also disenfranchises people who are unable or unwilling to get government ID in time to present it at the polls.

Re: Senate Unanimously Approves a Bill to Make Juneteenth a Public Holiday

#292
post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Requiring ID to vote always hurts " has always seemed to me like an admission that is innately anti-democratic, and I don't know how people ever spin it otherwise.

The ironic thing is that the people on Hacker News understand security. They know that a lack of voter ID, mass mail-in balloting, ballot harvesting, lack of chain of custody of ballots, lack of ability to observe the counting of ballots, etc. are all terrible security practices. They practically guarantee fraud in elections. If you told the average HN reader to secure his banking information like we secure the vote,…

Hi: What?

Who is proposing we eliminate the chain of custody for ballots? Who's actually called for that. Who has said "no observation of ballot counting" as opposed to "everyone who feels like it can come in and wander freely to investigate". Ballot harvesting has at least 3 different definitions, some of which are fine (put your ballots somewhere other than a polling place, and officials collect them) others are dubious (give some person you trust your ballot, have them deliver it to the polls). And if these things are "guaranteeing" election fraud, show me where it happened on such scale as to matter (and not some dude who did something he shouldn't but got caught and therefor disproves your point about how bad the security is).

There's bad faith arguing and then there's this.

Re: Senate Unanimously Approves a Bill to Make Juneteenth a Public Holiday

#293

"Republican legislation to limit teaching a historically accurate picture of U.S. history in public institutions has advanced in some half a dozen states." Mind-boggling propaganda.

Can you explain why you believe this isn't a factual claim?

Here's one of the bills that NPR is presumably referring to: Texas HB 3979, which was just signed into law by the governor yesterday:

https://legiscan.com/TX/text/HB3979/2021

That's its full text. You can read it, it's short.

Some highlights are that the bill mandates (that's mandates - not prevents) that Texan schoolchildren are educated about:

* "the history of Native Americans;"

* "the history of white supremacy, including but not limited to the institution of slavery, the eugenics movement, and the Ku Klux Klan, and the ways in which it is morally wrong;"

* "the history and importance of the civil right movement"

* "the history and importance of the women's suffrage movement"

* The Indian Removal Act

* the Fugitive Slave Acts of 1793 and 1850;

* Brown v. Board of Education;

* The Underground Railroad

The bill also mandates that Texan schoolchildren learn about such historical figures as MLK, Frederick Douglass, Sally Hemings and Cesar Chavez, to name but a few.

So tell me: who wants to prevent a "historically accurate picture of the United States" from being taught in schools - those who support a bill that requires children to be taught about the history of slavery, Indian genocide, the civil rights movement and white supremacy, or those who oppose such a bill?

And I've only talked about what what the bill requires. What does it prevent? What does HB3979 ban from Texan classroom? Again, I encourage you to read the whole thing yourself, but I know that most people don't click through to the source, so I'll quote again.

Some of the things that HB3979 bans from being taught to Texan schoolchildren include that:

* "an individual, by virtue of the individual's race or sex, bears responsibility for actions committed in the past by other members of the same race or sex;"

* "an individual should be discriminated against or receive adverse treatment solely or partly because of the individual's race;"

* "an individual should feel discomfort, guilt, anguish, or any other form of psychological distress on account of the individual's race or sex;"

Similar wording appears in most of the anti-CRT bills working their way through state legislatures.

You need to understand this: critical race theorists want to teach the above. They oppose these bills (and lie about their contents) because they want to discriminate on the basis of race, make people feel discomfort, guilt and anguish based on their race, hold entire races collectively responsible for the actions of individual members of that race, and engage in racial stereotyping and scapegoating. The sooner you realise this, the sooner you'll be able to make sense of our current moment.

Re: Senate Unanimously Approves a Bill to Make Juneteenth a Public Holiday

#294
post #6

On one hand, that's nice that there's another public holiday, but on the other hand this feels like such an empty gesture, almost like the political equivalent of putting a filter on your selfie.

Agree, but we’re also working with politicians that had discrepancies with a law protecting Asians from hate crimes[0] [0] https://www.cnn.com/2021/05/20/politics/republicans-voted-no...

Wait till you hear about Senate Amendment No. 1456:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E1G2lyeWYAYSQnn?format=jpg&name=...

Re: Senate Unanimously Approves a Bill to Make Juneteenth a Public Holiday

#295

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The people who prefer not to confront the ugly parts of history directly. There are many.

There are people who would not celebrate the emancipation of slavery?

PS to yesterday's sibling comment: Today, the House voted on the same bill. It passed overwhelmingly 415-14.

The 14 representatives who voted "nay" to the celebration of the end of slavery came from exactly the usual suspects.

So, again, yes.

Re: Senate Unanimously Approves a Bill to Make Juneteenth a Public Holiday

#296

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In Australia we always have elections on Saturday. Works well for most people. Of course, there is a minority of people it doesn't work well for, such as people who have to work on Saturdays, and observant Jews. And for those people we have early voting and postal voting too. I never quite understand why voting is such a controversial topic in the US. In many countries (I'm sure Australia is not alone in this) it is…

As an australian, the reason the process is boring is because voting is mandatory. Well, to within a practical degree; some people can't, some people don't etc By making it mandatory: 1. everyone has to accept that voting has to be accessible. 2. it's pretty hard to contest the results of a vote when you know "everyone had their say". In the US the variations around accessibility can significantly affect voter turnou…

People tend to contest the result because they feel the result was wrong or miscounted. Not because not everyone voted. I don't see how that changes if everyone is forced to vote.

Re: Senate Unanimously Approves a Bill to Make Juneteenth a Public Holiday

#297
post #256
post #201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> A segment which comprises, by simple math, a full 15% of retail, customer service, and hospitality workers, who in turn make up a very large portion of the working poor, one of the least-well-represented interest groups in the US. Questions around the math aside, in Australia for federal elections the polling booths are open from 08:00 through to 18:00 - and the process to hop in and vote is typically fast , at lea…

>"... the process to hop in and vote is typically fast, at least compared to what we see on the news for USA elections.." The process is typically fast in the US as well, but the edge cases are what get into the news. The USA also has a population 13x larger, so we should expect any given issue to occur about 13x as often in the USA as in AUS.

> The USA also has a population 13x larger, so we should expect any given issue to occur about 13x as often in the USA as in AUS.

Nitpick: "13x as much", not "13x as often".

Re: Senate Unanimously Approves a Bill to Make Juneteenth a Public Holiday

#298

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When it comes to virtue signaling, everyone is onboard.

Are you implying that making Juneteenth a Federal holiday is virtue signalling? Some things are both virtuous, and worth signalling to others.

There might be a healthy balance between actual change, and signaling change.

...but I would argue that modern society is currently obsessed with signaling, and not at all discussing real change.

Re: Senate Unanimously Approves a Bill to Make Juneteenth a Public Holiday

#299

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Could you not have both? I'm not certain how mail-in ballots are counted currently, but it is certainly possible to have the ballots be in a sleeve, and the ballot itself only be exposed to the machine reading it. Put the ballot 'inserters' under camera if needed. It seems like a simple problem to solve. Another commenter mentioned that a real issue is that the counting of ballots isn't transparent, which is true. Wh…

No you cannot have both. Once a ballot is sent out via the mail, there is no physical control over it. It is therefore impossible to ensure the ballot is secret, which makes it impossible to know whether the voter is being bribed/coerced.

It’s funny your comment is downvoted because what you state is self evidentially true.

In general, sacrificing this important principle was acceptable if the alternative was to disenfranchise the voter (eg, they are overseas.) Now it seems there are many who want to just throw it away in the name of making voting “more accessible” in general. This is a pretty bad stance imo unless you assume it is cost-free, which it isn’t.

Re: Senate Unanimously Approves a Bill to Make Juneteenth a Public Holiday

#300
post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The secret ballot and full chain of custody of ballots is a pretty important thing in democracy.

Could you not have both? I'm not certain how mail-in ballots are counted currently, but it is certainly possible to have the ballots be in a sleeve, and the ballot itself only be exposed to the machine reading it. Put the ballot 'inserters' under camera if needed. It seems like a simple problem to solve. Another commenter mentioned that a real issue is that the counting of ballots isn't transparent, which is true. Wh…

A secret ballot and chain of custody both rely on the idea that the ballot is verifiably given to the voter, filled out in secret, and never leaves the control of the voter before being submitted in a way that removes the connection to that voter.

Literally all of this is invalidated by a mail in voting system. You cannot be sure the proper person got the ballot, you cannot be sure the person filled it out without it being seen by others or coerced, and you cannot be sure the ballot wasn’t intercepted somewhere along the line and modified. The entire system hinges upon a signature verification process which is automated and obviously needs to avoid false positives more than false negatives, given the risk of disfranchisement. We should expect the signature check to be a poor mechanism to block hijacked ballots, anyone with a bit of sense can see why we should expect it to allow most signatures through.

What we should expect under a mass mail in voting system is fairly obvious, given the means, motive, and opportunities it uniquely affords people in highly contested elections.

It has been interesting to watch smart people (not you) who were warning about these risks years ago be forced to stop agreeing with them because of the political implications that would likely come if we had verified examples of these weaknesses being exploited.

Post reply on HN