Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Kids need freedom, too

persuasion.community

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

51–60 of 391 posts

Re: Kids need freedom, too

#51

Post by caturopath »

tw04 wrote: post #46
minikites wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>all our major institutions: both political parties as well as the permanent bureocracy, corporations, churches, the media and so on These things have been dysfunctional for decades. What's different now compared to when things were "good"?

The major difference is the vast, vast majority of households were single income. "Working mother" was a non-existent thing. Men went to work, mothers stayed home. So if you let your kids roam the neighborhood in the summer SOMEONE'S mom was there to keep an eye out. I would say, in general, it also lead to more socializing in neighborhoods because while I would never claim that a stay-at-home mom isn't doing a full-…

Eyes on the street used to be provided not only by stay-at-home parents, but by other folks going about their lives: people walking through, shopkeepers, etc. Over time, modern suburbanism became more and more locked in: extreme separation of uses, strikingly non-through streets, non-street-interacting access to apartments, houses, and shops, lower density, etc. This isn't the only story, but it's certainly a part of it.

Re: Kids need freedom, too

#52

Post by rsync »

kbelder wrote: post #2

I'm having this issue a bit with my wife. I want my 9-yr old daughter to go to the playground a couple blocks away on her own; my wife is reluctant. My argument is that it's statistically very safe, especially in our neighborhood, and that we and her older brothers all did similar things. Her argument is that a girl needs to be more cautious than a boy, and that although she knows it's unlikely anything bad would hap…

"I'm having this issue a bit with my wife. I want my 9-yr old daughter to go to the playground a couple blocks away on her own; my wife is reluctant."

...

"We're planning to compromise by letting her do it, but only after we get her her first phone."

I hesitate to enter into child rearing discussions but ...

May I suggest a slightly different approach: satisfy your wife by following, secretly, your child at a distance the first few times. All the benefits of independence and self-reliance, etc., for your child - and a gradual, baby steps approach for your wife as she gets comfortable with this routine.

May I also suggest that a phone is unnecessary due to the fact that every single other person already has a phone. Further, bad actors will likely assume your daughter has a phone. It's classically selfish behavior but you can piggyback on the (telephone) safety net that everyone else has already constructed. I know from voluminous personal experience that everyone, everywhere, is happy to use their phone to help your child. Just make sure she memorizes your phone numbers :)

Re: Kids need freedom, too

#53

Post by ryukafalz »

handrous wrote: post #34
kbelder wrote: post #2

I'm having this issue a bit with my wife. I want my 9-yr old daughter to go to the playground a couple blocks away on her own; my wife is reluctant. My argument is that it's statistically very safe, especially in our neighborhood, and that we and her older brothers all did similar things. Her argument is that a girl needs to be more cautious than a boy, and that although she knows it's unlikely anything bad would hap…

We let our very-capable son and his less-capable-but-bright and more-experienced older sister freely wander the neighborhood on bicycles when they were 5.5 and 7, respectively. Worked out fine so far. Varies by neighborhood, though. Our current one's busy-body and kids-only-play-with-parental-escort enough that we had a couple neighbors stop by to warn us that they'd seen our kids several streets over, thinking they'…

> your main worry by a country mile should be cars, not predators

100%, and cars are a reasonable worry that we should do something about. There are well known traffic calming measures that we know slow down traffic substantially (speed being one of the greatest causes of pedestrian fatalities) and even in my very walkable city we're largely not using them.

Re: Kids need freedom, too

#54

Post by throwaway0a5e »

tw04 wrote: post #46
minikites wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>all our major institutions: both political parties as well as the permanent bureocracy, corporations, churches, the media and so on These things have been dysfunctional for decades. What's different now compared to when things were "good"?

The major difference is the vast, vast majority of households were single income. "Working mother" was a non-existent thing. Men went to work, mothers stayed home. So if you let your kids roam the neighborhood in the summer SOMEONE'S mom was there to keep an eye out. I would say, in general, it also lead to more socializing in neighborhoods because while I would never claim that a stay-at-home mom isn't doing a full-…

>"Working mother" was a non-existent thing.

It very much was but not at the relative income level most of HN is at or was raised in so people forget about it.

Re: Kids need freedom, too

#55

Post by vlunkr »

I think this debate is too often a false dichotomy. There's a huge range of choices between never letting kids leave your sight until they're 18, and letting them ride a subway by themselves at age 9. Parents are currently leaning on the cautious side, there may be downsides, but I don't think it's some great tragedy.

Re: Kids need freedom, too

#56

Post by daenz »

tw04 wrote: post #46
minikites wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>all our major institutions: both political parties as well as the permanent bureocracy, corporations, churches, the media and so on These things have been dysfunctional for decades. What's different now compared to when things were "good"?

The major difference is the vast, vast majority of households were single income. "Working mother" was a non-existent thing. Men went to work, mothers stayed home. So if you let your kids roam the neighborhood in the summer SOMEONE'S mom was there to keep an eye out. I would say, in general, it also lead to more socializing in neighborhoods because while I would never claim that a stay-at-home mom isn't doing a full-…

I think the popular opinion nowadays is to have either parents equally likely to stay home and raise the kids, with a negative bias against that being the female's responsibility, where historically there's been a strong positive bias for that.

People should do whatever works for them and their partners, but I think the underlying point is that raising children requires more than just a single parent.

Re: Kids need freedom, too

#57

Post by gilbetron »

Much as we are finding about obesity being caused by the "food environment", there's an unhealthy "kid environment" in many places these days. I have a 12 year old, and he barely would go run around our neighborhood growing up because there weren't any other kids doing it. We tried to get him to do it, but none of his friends would join him. Other neighborhoods achieve a critical mass and have tons of kids that run around playing.

It bums me out a bit, but I've compensated by getting him involved in lots of camps and activities, which I think are more interesting anyway. Growing up, sure we ran around and did some things, but it was usually pretty boring. My son would get to spend summers fishing, learning different sports, kayaking, running through different parks, and many other activities that I never go to experience.

It's a difficult balance, and just excruciating during the pandemic to figure out.

And now that my son is 12 and vaccinated, it turns out most of his friends think playing outside is a "dumb little kids thing". And there are hardly any camps, and the few that exist filled up instantly. So I'm acting as a bit of a camp counselor this summer and working more in the evenings so I can bring him places with friends.

Re: Kids need freedom, too

#58

Post by caturopath »

vlunkr wrote: post #55

I think this debate is too often a false dichotomy. There's a huge range of choices between never letting kids leave your sight until they're 18, and letting them ride a subway by themselves at age 9. Parents are currently leaning on the cautious side, there may be downsides, but I don't think it's some great tragedy.

It's striking to me that the extreme end of 'freedom' here is letting a 9 year old ride a train alone. I must be getting old.

I realize it's relevant because Skenazy wrote and talked about doing so, but it's also just so non-extreme.

Re: Kids need freedom, too

#60

Post by rajin444 »

minikites wrote: post #39
recursivedoubts wrote: post #25

Social trust has been falling for decades, and the blame lies at the feet of nearly all our major institutions: both political parties as well as the permanent bureocracy, corporations, churches, the media and so on. If we want a healthy society, of which independent children are a part, we should work to restore social trust. "We castrate and bid the geldings be fruitful.”

>all our major institutions: both political parties as well as the permanent bureocracy, corporations, churches, the media and so on These things have been dysfunctional for decades. What's different now compared to when things were "good"?

Society converging more and more into a "global" culture. Maybe we're just in a transitional phase, or maybe trust doesn't scale. Probably both.
Post reply on HN