80% of tech could be built outside IT by 2024, thanks to low-code tools • Hacker News Board

Re: 80% of tech could be built outside IT by 2024, thanks to low-code tools

#211

Post by ozim » Tue, Jun 15, 2021, 3:16 PM UTC

lwhi wrote: post #141

ozim wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Translating requirements into code - is about language and tools as you have to learn the language, as you noted "few people wanted to learn to use those". Third paragraph is saying about loads of amateur spaghetti code, so turns out it was not that hard. So third paragraph contradicts things written in the second. Low-code tools promise to address "problem of the language" so it is easy to translate business knowled…

> Translating requirements into code - is about language and tools as you have to learn the language, as you noted "few people wanted to learn to use those". I'd actually argue differently. It's more about a design process that requires domain knowledge, technical knowledge and the ability to assess a problem contextually. Coding is only part of this process.

Keep in mind low code tools should ideally be used by domain expert directly as I wrote in my post.

Re: 80% of tech could be built outside IT by 2024, thanks to low-code tools

#212

Post by lolive » Tue, Jun 15, 2021, 3:43 PM UTC

username90 wrote: post #157

lolive wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

CSV IS low-code. Excel spreadsheets massively rely upon (usually tricky, sometimes network-enabled) macros.

I don't understand your comment. Do you disagree with my statement that excel is low code?

No offense but yes. Excel can be any arbitrary code. So it can be arbitrarily big/complex.

Re: 80% of tech could be built outside IT by 2024, thanks to low-code tools

#213

Post by duped » Tue, Jun 15, 2021, 3:46 PM UTC

scsilver wrote: post #208

duped wrote: post #207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Compilers may get better but business logic rarely gets simpler and specs rarely more refined

Sure, but if you dont have to translate requirements and a end user can build their own solution, you save alot of overhead.

So by writing code? ;)

Re: 80% of tech could be built outside IT by 2024, thanks to low-code tools

#214

Post by garyrob » Tue, Jun 15, 2021, 3:54 PM UTC

jacquesm wrote: post #123

gregjor wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure. Tools like that have been around since the ‘70s. They have their uses — building forms and reports point-and-click. But the limited scope and inevitable low ceiling of capabilities means they did not spell the end of programmers. Instead they expand the market because the non-programmers will need help when they outgrow their tools, or even sooner when they can’t figure out a JOIN or GROUP BY or how to handle r…

No, this is a lot better than what was sold during the 70's, 80's and up to the mid 2000's. I'm aware of all of those developments, was regularly pitched about them and have evaluated the bulk of the solutions on offer, from Mimer, Mapper and other mainframe based solutions to the various offerings on PCs and UNIX platforms. Those are not to be compared to the three I mentioned above. Agreed on the fact that these le…

"Mendix, Betty Blocks, Outsystems"

Interesting. I've never even heard of any of those products. They must be in some completely different space than I'm operating in.

In 1980 I was a database consultant, with a long-term account at NY Telephone. Their marketing department mainly used a 4GL called NOMAD. I have to say, it was really great for creating hierarchical databases and for formatting complex reports from it. In fact, when I moved on from that world, I've always missed it since then.

Nothing I've used since then has actually worked as well as NOMAD for the purpose of generating reports from data. SQL did many of the same things, but not as easily. (And even though it was based on a hierarchical DB, you could do operations that were basically SQL's joins. So it was both relational and hierarchical. Although I'm not sure whether the word "relational" was used in that way at the time.)

And at that time there was talk about how in 10 or 20 years even those 4GLs wouldn't be necessary any more because software would generate itself from specifications. I sure haven't seen that happening. In fact, my personal experience has been that, at least for what NOMAD was built to do, nothing since then has even done it as easily.

But then again, I haven't even heard of the tools you named!! Are they just not popular yet because they haven't had time to reach their full audiences, or are they only used in very specific niches such that they don't have a lot of presence in places such as Hacker News?

Re: 80% of tech could be built outside IT by 2024, thanks to low-code tools

#215

Post by jacquesm » Tue, Jun 15, 2021, 4:14 PM UTC

garyrob wrote: post #214

jacquesm wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, this is a lot better than what was sold during the 70's, 80's and up to the mid 2000's. I'm aware of all of those developments, was regularly pitched about them and have evaluated the bulk of the solutions on offer, from Mimer, Mapper and other mainframe based solutions to the various offerings on PCs and UNIX platforms. Those are not to be compared to the three I mentioned above. Agreed on the fact that these le…

"Mendix, Betty Blocks, Outsystems" Interesting. I've never even heard of any of those products. They must be in some completely different space than I'm operating in. In 1980 I was a database consultant, with a long-term account at NY Telephone. Their marketing department mainly used a 4GL called NOMAD. I have to say, it was really great for creating hierarchical databases and for formatting complex reports from it.…

I'm aware of NOMAD, fond memories in fact :)

Yes, they are somewhat niche. Mendix got bought out by Siemens, Betty Blocks is an interesting dutch start-up. I came across all three of them in the last year and they've made me re-consider my point of view towards no-code/low code environments, which I used to believe are niche and/or toys. I think they are entering the mainstream and will find a spot somewhere between 'excel' and proper programming (in so far as stringing together API calls is still proper programming ;) ).

Re: 80% of tech could be built outside IT by 2024, thanks to low-code tools

#216

Post by guythedudebro » Tue, Jun 15, 2021, 5:18 PM UTC

annoyingnoob wrote: post #20

Things change over time, including APIs. Most of these low/no-code tools offers integrations, using APIs. You'll get something setup and working and then one day it breaks, because the API for your integration changed. Now What? Now you wait, without your no-code tool working, while someone that actually writes software gets around to fixing it for you. We'll have 80% of solutions failing sometimes and no one can tha…

I just learned this recently. In that formula bar, you can call custom vba functions written in the IDE.

Re: 80% of tech could be built outside IT by 2024, thanks to low-code tools

#217

Post by [deleted] » Tue, Jun 15, 2021, 6:34 PM UTC

qualudeheart wrote: post #149

quanto wrote: post #110

As a programmer, I am hoping the low-code future comes true. Many of the comments here seem critical (and rightly so). It is naturally to be critical as the no-code/low-code approach overpromised before, and its hypothetical success (if ever) will threaten the job security of the many in the HN crowd. However, the existence of low-code tools means that coders can focus more on the complex problems and/or work with th…

I hope every single low code app either fails or somehow increases the demand for real programmers. Programming is one of the few jobs that e.g. autistic people can do and still earn a living wage. It is a tragedy to see it replaced by another opportunity for rent seeking and grift by “low code” app companies.

[deleted]

Re: 80% of tech could be built outside IT by 2024, thanks to low-code tools

#218

Post by ozim » Tue, Jun 15, 2021, 10:17 PM UTC

jacquesm wrote: post #177

ozim wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't see it that way. In the moment that you want to have multiple users working on the same Excel/Dataset and changing formulas/calculations/rules it is basically bespoke software. Well good luck changing stuff by each employee on their own. Because there will be appointed one employee who will be making changes for that and as such "Excel" grows he will end up not working on whatever he was expert for but on mai…

> I don't see it that way > In the end I am biased because I am a dev I agree :) Unbounded flexibility for one party spells 'nightmare' for another... as with every other tool: use where applicable and don't try to stretch it too much to solve something it wasn't intended for and you'll be fine. Your job is not at risk from low/no code tools. It will simply open up a different class of problems to an intermediate lev…

Thanks for agreeing :)

Unbounded flexibility is what most of business people expect. I am always a bit sad when I see the look on their faces when I have to tell them that their great idea is going to cost 5x more because they wanted their previous great idea ASAP/cheap/#timeToMarket and we have to build on top of that.

I just imagine how it must look when someone tells "sorry, it is not possible, because our low code platform does not support something like that".

Re: 80% of tech could be built outside IT by 2024, thanks to low-code tools

#219

Post by gregjor » Tue, Jun 15, 2021, 11:06 PM UTC

foxbee wrote: post #154

gregjor wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I thought that’s what IDEs are for.

IDEs are for speeding up dev too. From our perspective, we were vexed with continually having to repeat ourselves, building the same CRUD tools time and time again. Budibase removes a lot of that repetitive grunt work, and in many cases, you end up with a better, well-designed internal tool.

Cool. I have code libraries and snippets that let me do the same thing. I can put a CRUD app together pretty fast, and the result is customizable, secure, and can scale up for a moderately-sized business.

Re: 80% of tech could be built outside IT by 2024, thanks to low-code tools

#220

Post by gregjor » Tue, Jun 15, 2021, 11:19 PM UTC

jacquesm wrote: post #123

gregjor wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure. Tools like that have been around since the ‘70s. They have their uses — building forms and reports point-and-click. But the limited scope and inevitable low ceiling of capabilities means they did not spell the end of programmers. Instead they expand the market because the non-programmers will need help when they outgrow their tools, or even sooner when they can’t figure out a JOIN or GROUP BY or how to handle r…

No, this is a lot better than what was sold during the 70's, 80's and up to the mid 2000's. I'm aware of all of those developments, was regularly pitched about them and have evaluated the bulk of the solutions on offer, from Mimer, Mapper and other mainframe based solutions to the various offerings on PCs and UNIX platforms. Those are not to be compared to the three I mentioned above. Agreed on the fact that these le…

We’re not disagreeing. The new batch of no-code/low-code tools may find a niche and help some non-programmers solve real problems. I see that with Excel, WordPress, Shopify, even SalesForce and Hubspot all the time.

I don’t agree that “80% of tech” (whatever that means) will be built by non-programmers in two years. The hype about new tools (or AI) replacing skilled programmers comes around like clockwork because lots of managers and executives would love to see that happen. Programmers are expensive, in-demand (so hard to find and keep) and often temperamental and hard to manage. That part of the dream is bullshit. If these tools do find a niche they can only expand the amount of software out there, creating a larger pool of work for programmers.

Microwave ovens didn’t replace regular ovens and stoves, nor did they democratize cooking for the masses. No chefs hung up their hats and said “game over.” They are a convenience, a shortcut. If you want a real meal you cook or have someone who knows how cook for you.