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Myths in cycling: wider tires are slower

renehersecycles.com

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Re: Myths in cycling: wider tires are slower

#381

Post by cameron_b »

petre wrote: post #335
auxym wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In many ways, modern gravel bikes are a comeback of the "sport touring" road bikes that were popular from roughly the mid 70s to the mid 90s, then became mostly absent from market. Compared with "racing" bikes, they had wider tires, a more relaxed geometry, and various conveniences such as mounting points for fenders and racks. Thus, they were a much better option for the majority of riders who did not participate in…

The annoying thing is that the industry still tweaks those perfectly functional gravel bikes for "performance" cycling adding useless features like an aggresive low stack geometry, 1x only drivetrain compatibility, nonsense suspension. Jan Heine gave us some of the best advice through Bicycle Quaterly, his books and the Rene Herse website.

The 1-by drivetrain is something I sought out when looking for my Wife's bike ( or last new bike purchase several years ago ). The advances in the range you can stack in a single cassette totally outweigh the upside of a second ring up front. She has no plans to take that bike up HWY 80 to the Blue Ridge Parkway, and apart from that, she gets by just fine even pulling a kid trailer around town.

My experience with 1-by drive is that the simplicity and (hopefully) fewer opportunities for derailment are totally worth it.

Re: Myths in cycling: wider tires are slower

#382

Post by sliken »

usrusr wrote: post #360
sliken wrote: post #276

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd had just about every cable actuated brakes. Old school cantilevers, various flavors, u-brakes, v-brakes, cable-discs etc. etc. etc. Didn't realize what I was missing till I tried a nice set of hydraulic discs, I'll never go back.

That list is looking suspiciously void of brakes that would have trouble fitting a 28 mm tire. Yes, disc brakes can be very good, but the gap is much smaller than must people would expect.

Heh, I've had my fair share that would hit the limit in the 25-28mm. In particular the shimano SLR/dual action/dual lever or whatever they are called.

I don't agree with the "gap is much smaller than people would expect". Have you tried a decent hydraulic brake? I raced on and off road, was a bike messenger, designed and built (from tubes) a mtb frame, and bike commuted nearly every workday of my life. Disc brakes have significant advantages over any rim brake.

Don't knock them till you try them, I was dubious myself.

Re: Myths in cycling: wider tires are slower

#383

Post by sliken »

mymythisisthis wrote: post #349
sliken wrote: post #295

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Heh, yes, less maintenance, but also less finicky. Brake pads on rim brakes are a nightmare. They follow a 3-d arc as they approach the rim, which is itself a very complicated 3d surface. Ideally the front edge of the brake pad hits slightly before the rear edge, to avoid squeal... but not too much or it will engage too softly. Even minor wear changes the engagement point. Cables need maintenance, they wear, get kink…

What about cable over fluid disc brakes for a commute bicycle?

I personally think that mountain bikes with slicks make for a great commuting bike. Fast, stable, low maintenance, and shrug off curbs, steps, and potholes. They also tend to be (on average) more upright for better visibility of the road. Also the brakes are available in the up right position, unlike some road bikes. Never know when a car is going to want the piece of road you are on, it's nice to be able to hop onto a curb.

Also MTB's generally accommodate the widest tires, except for fat tire bikes and generally wider tires can be very helpful when commuting for comfort and making things like a random rock or walnut much less exciting when you hit them.

Commuting with rim brakes inevitably destroys the rims, try commuting for 3-5 years then closely inspect your rims, little micro cracks are not uncommon, and will get worse right up until you have a rim failure.

It's also really nice if you do hit something hard enough to knock a wheel out of true, that you still have two working brakes.

Re: Myths in cycling: wider tires are slower

#384

Post by jacquesm »

nikau wrote: post #377
jacquesm wrote: post #372

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I take it you've never been on a tandem going downhill for a long stretch? That's not a matter of confidence, that's purely a matter of safety.

I've been on a touring bike with a total weight of 130kg down massive hills in Japan

They why would you comment on what it's like to go downhill on a tandem?

I've got a Koga TwintySix, a trekking tandem, fully loaded it gets up to 180-200 Kg (two adults+camping gear, the 200 Kg is the maximum allowed load), the brakes are super good and yet, by the time you reach 70 kph downhill they are no longer capable of stopping the bike, safely or even at all.

A drag brake is a must in a situation like that or your brakes will start fading within minutes during speed reduction (short bursts of braking to reduce your speed to something safe and allow for ample cooling), and long before you really need them.

Re: Myths in cycling: wider tires are slower

#385

Post by PragmaticPulp »

dennisgorelik wrote: post #204
PragmaticPulp wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you’re going a short distance: No, it doesn’t matter. For a longer ride or a trail ride, the loss from the tires adds up. One extra MPH means a lot when you’re doing a multiple hour ride at an average of 10-15MPH. Tire pressure influences rolling resistance significantly on larger tires. I’ll some times increase pressure on longer rides or for uphill portions. Lower pressures have more traction, so I’ll let air ou…

> One extra MPH means a lot when you’re doing a multiple hour ride at an average of 10-15MPH. Why spend your effort on optimizing your bike performance by 8% if you can instead simply shorten the distance by 8%?

Recreational riding is about going places.

You could shorten your distance to zero by not leaving the house at all, but that's missing the point. I like to go places, and the further I can go on the same amount of energy the better.

Re: Myths in cycling: wider tires are slower

#386

Post by aix1 »

jasonvorhe wrote: post #61
haswell wrote: post #12

This is one of the reasons I love the emergence of the "Gravel" category of bikes. They look and have geometry similar to a road bike, but they have enough clearance for nice fat gravel tires. I ride in Chicago (shitty roads, potholes & construction are everywhere), and love that I can put nice 38mm+ GravelKing Slick tires on the bike, and still have no problem keeping up with most road bikes. I've gotten funny looks…

I got my Cannondale CAADX in 2015 right before the gravel hype started. I've put WTB Riddler 37 on it and it's close to a gravel bike but a bit more direct and maneuverable - I love it. If I was in for a new bike right now, I'd be very tempted to get a Canyon Grail with electronic shifting though. After Cannondale's manufacturing error put me in the hospital for a night followed by a broad recall of a lot of their ca…

Sorry to hear that you were affected by the fork defect. I hope there were no lasting effects from the injuries.

I got Cannondale's recall email as I was flying to Kenya, with my CAADX, for a cycling trip. Was a bit nervous riding the bike, especially given the terrain, but in the end decided to risk it as I didn't want to curtail the trip.

At the time I was wondering whether I was overreacting, and decided that I probably was. It is quite shocking to come across someone who personally suffered an accident due to the fault.

Re: Myths in cycling: wider tires are slower

#387

Post by AtlasBarfed »

louthy wrote: post #2

If that were the case, surely Tour de France riders would use wider tyres to gain more grip going around corners, especially in time-trials or stages with sprint finishes. Doesn’t a greater surface area touching the floor means more frictional effects when pushing against the road?

Tour riders are EXTREMELY conservative, well they were back when Lemond pushed clipless pedals, more helmets, and aerobars.

The nameless scapegoat who was totally the only person using EPO pushed more thorough full-system wind tunnel testing/aerodynamics and a lot more scientific testing, and even (gasp) clincher tires.

Euro riders for a long time worshipped Eddy Merckx (who was totally clean and never doped) and thought you basically only needed an italian bike and nothing else and were culturally averse to change.

Also, keep in mind the Tour riders are basically showcasing industry products, and those products aren't really that diverse in their sourcing, especially with globalization. They all run on whatever they are getting for free or at a vast discount from the two or three providers in each equipment category.

Re: Myths in cycling: wider tires are slower

#388

Post by AtlasBarfed »

pverghese wrote: post #336
JNRowe wrote: post #324

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pinarello bikes, Shimano groupsets, Fizik saddles, Kask helmets, Castelli kit, Oakley glasses, and all the other things you see surrounding the fat guy at the coffee shop on a Sunday morning ;)

None of them are the products of Ineos.

"Man, you sure like Tide".

-Mitch Hedberg riding in a racecar

Re: Myths in cycling: wider tires are slower

#389

Post by analog31 »

sliken wrote: post #286
analog31 wrote: post #216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While I don't dispute this, and I have both kinds of bikes, when I talk to "casual" cyclists who have tried disc brakes, they almost unanimously describe the difference as being like night and day. Perhaps the issue is that they are comparing new disc brakes on good bikes, to old crappy neglected rim brakes on cheap bikes. Still, the difference in popularity is unmistakable. Myself, I'm not getting rid of my rim brak…

I've had top of the line campy brakes, top of the line shimano (dura-ace), and quite a few of the other options. Do yourself a favor and try out some decent hydraulic brakes. Now only are they pretty amazing, but amazingly consistent. Even in rain, heat, cold, etc. Also it's MUCH rarer to have to undo a brake, just because your wheel went out of true. Try to track your use, going downhill and hit a puddle, do you dra…

Yup, definitely. Agreed about wet riding. The weirdest one was coming out of my cold garage into a hot humid day, and the water condensing on my rims. That's why I say I wouldn't get rid of the rim brakes, but appreciate why they might be in decline.

I've tried hydraulics on friends bikes, definitely nicer, but again not enough to motivate me to switch.

That's how it is with all of these improvements. Someone will always have newer, slicker gear than me, but I keep riding. ;-)

Re: Myths in cycling: wider tires are slower

#390

Post by ben7799 »

MarkusWandel wrote: post #101

Cheap tires are slower. Reliable tires are slower. It's obvious from the pictures that the fatties they're testing are special, with paper thin skinwalls. I can totally see that a high performance fattie would be just as good as a high performance narrow tire. It's the inelastic deformation of the tire casing (and inner tube) that eats power. Unfortunately thin-walled high performance tires are also delicate. I've se…

The Rene Herse tires are just branding on tires he has made for him by Panaracer. They used to be called Compass Tires till he made a deal with the Rene Herse estate to use the Herse name for branding.

He basically asks Panaracer to make everything thinner & lighter and delete flat protection, reduce the tread thickness, etc.. They are fast & potentially comfortable tires for their size due to being made as very racy tires. The Panaracer versions of the tires are still very fast but have a much better reputation for durability, flat protection, compatibility with a wider array of rims, and for being easier to setup tubeless.

I have unfortunately been on rides with people with the Compass/Rene Herse tires where they repeatedly flatted over and over, IMO they are too fragile for me. I have had exceptionally good luck with the Panaracer tires.

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