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Why no-one in America was arrested as part of Operation Ironside

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Re: Why no-one in America was arrested as part of Operation Ironside

#51

Post by sixothree »

fifticon wrote: post #29
MrBuddyCasino wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah I don't buy this for a second. US agencies are known to violate constitutional rights on a regular basis, usually without any repercussions. Yet in this scenario, where there doesn't even seem to be much innocent bycatch they're Doing It By The Books?

With regards to the US, there was a probably a high risk rich people were involved, and they constitute one of those minorities that America has had some degree of success in protecting the rights of.

That was my first assumption here. I assumed parallel construction and all of the other theories fall flat to occams razor. It's quite likely someone wealthy and connected was involved.

Re: Why no-one in America was arrested as part of Operation Ironside

#52

Post by teclordphrack2 »

MrBuddyCasino wrote: post #22
quantumofalpha wrote: post #16

More like no arrests that they could talk about, but it's not unheard of for governments to launder the evidence until it's more admissible in court ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parallel_construction )

Yeah I don't buy this for a second. US agencies are known to violate constitutional rights on a regular basis, usually without any repercussions. Yet in this scenario, where there doesn't even seem to be much innocent bycatch they're Doing It By The Books?

What specifically do you not buy? Parallel construction is a thing b/c the usa does it so much.

Re: Why no-one in America was arrested as part of Operation Ironside

#53

Post by pc86 »

elliekelly wrote: post #33
lugged wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The app was a plant, preloaded on mobile phones you'd only buy for criminal acts, so probably not much more than 251. For the record, they almost certainly overreached elsewhere but imo, what was done with this app is pretty fair and balanced. It's much better than requiring backdoors in apps or services. It's almost like real police work.

> preloaded on mobile phones you'd only buy for criminal acts Is this a thing? A specific type of prepaid phone or maybe a “laundered” sim card?

Every article about this has gone into at least a cursory explanation that these weren't even really phones per se. They were basically hardware devices used to access AN0M. This had the double effect of 1) making the criminals feel like it was more secure because it wasn't "public" and 2) making it easier for the governments involved to make the software do whatever they needed it to do.

Re: Why no-one in America was arrested as part of Operation Ironside

#54

Post by pwned1 »

YetAnotherNick wrote: post #27

How was the app marketed? Is there any T and C? Doesn't this imply willful lying of government to its citizens. What's the guarantee that they aren't doing the same with contact tracing apps or other necessary apps?

> Doesn't this imply willful lying of government to its citizens. What's the guarantee that they aren't doing the same with contact tracing apps or other necessary apps?

It should be the default to expect government to be lying to its citizens.

Re: Why no-one in America was arrested as part of Operation Ironside

#55

Post by kube-system »

londons_explore wrote: post #31

It's time to weaken the legal privacy protections of users, but strengthen the technical protection (encryption) and strengthen the requirement to notify users whose data has been accessed. I'd like so see police able to access any unencrypted data for any court sanctioned purpose, but within 6 weeks I'd like the owner of that data notified that the police have used their data and the reasons why. Then people can vot…

This is what a world without legal protections of data looks like: https://xkcd.com/538/

There's a major flaw in all encryption algorithms that humans use. They all have humans involved at some point in the decryption process.

Re: Why no-one in America was arrested as part of Operation Ironside

#56

Post by gamblor956 »

elliekelly wrote: post #32
kube-system wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> By the end of 2019, this third country was sending data to the FBI every Monday, Wednesday and Friday, according to the court document. > "This data comprises the encrypted messages of all the users of AN0MS with a few exceptions," the document reads. > Those exceptions included approximately 15 AN0M users in the United States. Sounds like the FBI got the data of everyone except the US users.

> Those exceptions included approximately 15 AN0M users in the United States. > The affidavit noted that if any other AN0M handsets "landed in the US" the AFP agreed to monitor them "for any threats to life". The FBI might not have been the one peeking in the window but they had friends willing to peek on their behalf. A mild inconvenience they can parallel construct around.

Parallel construction is actually quite difficult; it requires an independent chain of evidence not built upon the illegally-acquired evidence.

We hear about the cases where parallel construction worked because those cases are rare, and thus are news. We don't hear about the vast majority of cases where the police couldn't parallel construct their way around 4th Amendment violations.

Re: Why no-one in America was arrested as part of Operation Ironside

#57

Post by voxic11 »

gamblor956 wrote: post #56
elliekelly wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Those exceptions included approximately 15 AN0M users in the United States. > The affidavit noted that if any other AN0M handsets "landed in the US" the AFP agreed to monitor them "for any threats to life". The FBI might not have been the one peeking in the window but they had friends willing to peek on their behalf. A mild inconvenience they can parallel construct around.

Parallel construction is actually quite difficult; it requires an independent chain of evidence not built upon the illegally-acquired evidence. We hear about the cases where parallel construction worked because those cases are rare, and thus are news. We don't hear about the vast majority of cases where the police couldn't parallel construct their way around 4th Amendment violations.

If the parallel construction worked then we wouldn't know it had occurred. There are multiple officials on record saying parallel construction is a widespread practice and "used every day".

> The two senior DEA officials, who spoke on behalf of the agency but only on condition of anonymity, said the process is kept secret to protect sources and investigative methods. "Parallel construction is a law enforcement technique we use every day," one official said. "It's decades old, a bedrock concept."

https://web.archive.org/web/20130809014315/https://www.reute...

Re: Why no-one in America was arrested as part of Operation Ironside

#58

Post by gamblor956 »

voxic11 wrote: post #57
gamblor956 wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Parallel construction is actually quite difficult; it requires an independent chain of evidence not built upon the illegally-acquired evidence. We hear about the cases where parallel construction worked because those cases are rare, and thus are news. We don't hear about the vast majority of cases where the police couldn't parallel construct their way around 4th Amendment violations.

If the parallel construction worked then we wouldn't know it had occurred. There are multiple officials on record saying parallel construction is a widespread practice and "used every day". > The two senior DEA officials, who spoke on behalf of the agency but only on condition of anonymity, said the process is kept secret to protect sources and investigative methods. "Parallel construction is a law enforcement techni…

Yes, I don't doubt at the federal level that parallel construction works better than it does at the local level, because the feds have jurisdiction over bigger crimes. Drug crimes, involving multinational criminal organizations, generally involve many participants and transactions, and you only need to break 1 participant in a conspiracy to unravel the whole thing. (And more importantly, due to the many overlapping crimes being committed toward the common end, there are simply more options for pursuing parallel construction or even just pursuing different crimes.)

But at the local level where most crimes occur, parallel construction is a fantasy for the overwhelming majority of cases. Cops would absolutely love if they could just parallel their way around tainted evidence, but in most cases, there's only one crime, and only one trail of evidence, and there's no way to parallel around that.

(And I speak from experience; I was a public defender before I went into tax. I've seen many more failed attempts at parallel construction than successful attempts.)

Re: Why no-one in America was arrested as part of Operation Ironside

#59

Post by LorenPechtel »

gamblor956 wrote: post #56
elliekelly wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Those exceptions included approximately 15 AN0M users in the United States. > The affidavit noted that if any other AN0M handsets "landed in the US" the AFP agreed to monitor them "for any threats to life". The FBI might not have been the one peeking in the window but they had friends willing to peek on their behalf. A mild inconvenience they can parallel construct around.

Parallel construction is actually quite difficult; it requires an independent chain of evidence not built upon the illegally-acquired evidence. We hear about the cases where parallel construction worked because those cases are rare, and thus are news. We don't hear about the vast majority of cases where the police couldn't parallel construct their way around 4th Amendment violations.

While the government probably can't do a parallel construction in these cases it gives them the identity of the bad guys even if they have nothing to take to court. Thus they know who to target.

Re: Why no-one in America was arrested as part of Operation Ironside

#60

Post by MrBuddyCasino »

teclordphrack2 wrote: post #52
MrBuddyCasino wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah I don't buy this for a second. US agencies are known to violate constitutional rights on a regular basis, usually without any repercussions. Yet in this scenario, where there doesn't even seem to be much innocent bycatch they're Doing It By The Books?

What specifically do you not buy? Parallel construction is a thing b/c the usa does it so much.

I think parent poster edited his comment.
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