Some Americans are breaking out of political echo chambers • Hacker News Board

Re: Some Americans are breaking out of political echo chambers

#911

Post by belorn » Tue, Jun 15, 2021, 11:29 AM UTC

thu2111 wrote: post #898

TrispusAttucks wrote: post #869

Earlier quoted context omitted.

False dichotomy. Strawman. Just because someone is centrist doesn't mean they don't know what to think. It usually means they have a nuanced position on an issue that doesn't conveniently fit into a box that is red or blue.

All the people I know who like to think about issues deeply generally hate to be described as left or right and much prefer to reject labels. Sometimes I'm not sure they actually can't be labelled, and sometimes the difficulty in labelling them comes from an overall lack of coherency rather than a truly uncategorisable position, but, I don't know anyone who calls themselves a centrist and could talk about politics in…

As an example, Sweden where I live has 8 major political parties and during elections years there are usually tests where one can compare each parties political program to ones own political views. For me, the lowest rated for me sit at 45% and highest sit around 60% (which wasn't the centrist party).

I would definitively not call myself a centrist, nor left or right. There is some good goals even in the far left and far right, but also a lot of things I strongly disagree with to the point of alienation. Centrism simply just an other political agenda with its own set of prioritized demographics and intentions.

Re: Some Americans are breaking out of political echo chambers

#912

Post by TrispusAttucks » Tue, Jun 15, 2021, 11:33 AM UTC

thu2111 wrote: post #898

TrispusAttucks wrote: post #869

Earlier quoted context omitted.

False dichotomy. Strawman. Just because someone is centrist doesn't mean they don't know what to think. It usually means they have a nuanced position on an issue that doesn't conveniently fit into a box that is red or blue.

All the people I know who like to think about issues deeply generally hate to be described as left or right and much prefer to reject labels. Sometimes I'm not sure they actually can't be labelled, and sometimes the difficulty in labelling them comes from an overall lack of coherency rather than a truly uncategorisable position, but, I don't know anyone who calls themselves a centrist and could talk about politics in…

Therein lies the problem with labels.

"I will not make any deals with you. I've resigned. I will not be pushed, filed, stamped, indexed, briefed, debriefed or numbered. My life is my own."

~ Number 6

Re: Some Americans are breaking out of political echo chambers

#913

Post by myfavoritedog » Tue, Jun 15, 2021, 11:34 AM UTC

NaturalPhallacy wrote: post #804

creato wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This should be trivially easy for proponents of that theory to prove it if that is in his emails. Just link to an un-edited, full context email thread relevant to that topic. So does this exist? If so, just share that link. If not, stop pretending that "media bias" is an excuse to continue sharing the claim surrounded by unfounded conspiracy thinking.

> Thanks for sharing. Yes, I saw this earlier today and both Eddie and myself are actually quoted in it. It's a great article, but the problem is that our phylogenetic analyses aren't able to answer whether the sequences are unusual at individual residues, except if they are completely off. On a phylogenetic tree the virus looks totally normal and the close clustering with bats suggest that bats serve as the reservoi…

Notice how when you present the facts, people get really quiet. No, "Wow, I checked out the source and you appear to be right. I'm going to have to re-think these issues."

So much for intellectual integrity.

Re: Some Americans are breaking out of political echo chambers

#914

Post by esyir » Tue, Jun 15, 2021, 11:39 AM UTC

onethought wrote: post #906

esyir wrote: post #888

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a weird left wing wedge issue too. The point of a wedge is that it cleanly divides. They're thus bipartisan, almost by definition.

No, because it requires religious conservatism. Which is very much in the right sphere of the political spectrum. Take a peak outside of the US and make note of how abortion is not a wedge issue, which if you were correct should not be possible.

The US left aligned view on this is also beyond that of most of the eu. They've basically come to differing consensi on what limits to engage, whether they be waiting periods or time periods.the US left would despise German abortion law for instance, which requires mandatory counselling about their decision.

What I see from the US is an eternal war to drag it further, regardless of its current position. Its culture war for culture wars sake.

Re: Some Americans are breaking out of political echo chambers

#915

Post by ookdatnog » Tue, Jun 15, 2021, 11:44 AM UTC

Moodles wrote: post #452

mariodiana wrote: post #446

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Jonathan Haidt (who is mentioned in the article) did a study years ago. He separated a group of people into conservatives and liberals and then gave them a questionnaire on politics. Then he got a second group, separated them, and gave them the same questionnaire. Only he asked the second group of liberals and conservatives to answer the questionnaire the way they imagined the other side would. What he found was that…

Yeah, that doesn't surprise me at all actually. I'm sure both side demonize the other to some extent, and it's our natural reaction to look at them both as equally bad like we're disciplining two siblings or something, but it really seems that right now the left is more melodramatic in the demonization than the right. In my personal experience, quite a few people I've met seem to think if you disagree with them, you…

As someone left-leaning, I've always tried to be understanding and compassionate towards those with differing viewpoints. When Trump was campaigning, although I loath the man (and, to be clear, I believe he's outright evil), I did try to understand the viewpoint of "forgotten America" and see them as people whose frustrations are legitimate.

But then Trump tried to overturn the presidential election by attempting to have millions of votes thrown out unceremoniously, without a shred of evidence, with a constantly shifting story. This constitutes no less than an attempted coup. Although some people in the Republican party resisted this, in the end, the party decided not to purge Trump and his supporters (which would be the appropriate response to an attempted coup), and a sizeable portion of the party still publicly stands by him. At the same time, they are openly courting white supremacist militias and conspiracy theorists.

There are no other words for this: this is evil. Continued support for the Republican party is evil, as long as they have not purged Trumpism from the party.

Re: Some Americans are breaking out of political echo chambers

#916

Post by myko » Tue, Jun 15, 2021, 1:01 PM UTC

mythrwy wrote: post #859

myko wrote: post #850

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thankfully the facts are on my side. Have a nice day yourself. If you wish to defend your position, please explain Don Jr's meeting where he's looking for help from the Russian government, trump's obstruction regarding that meeting, Manafort's working in Ukraine on behalf of Putin, and Roger Stone's involvement with guccifier 2.0/wikileaks.

You are really doubling down on that? The facts are not on your side but the reverse. It's amazing to see in real time to be honest.

Yes I am doubling down on the facts. For reference, you posted two links with no explanation as to how they supposably refute my points and have refused to backup your claim that HRC created the Russia problem for trump.

Please explain:

- Don Jr's meeting where he's looking for help from the Russian government

- trump's obstruction regarding that meeting

- Manafort's shady dealings in Ukraine on behalf of Putin

- Roger Stone's involvement with guccifier 2.0/wikileaks while working directly with trump

- Why you think HRC created a fake story about Russia given the facts above and the fact that even the Steele Dossier (only part of trump's Russia problem) wasn't initiated by HRC or her campaign

The fact that you cannot defend these actions show the weakness of your position.

Re: Some Americans are breaking out of political echo chambers

#917

Post by myko » Tue, Jun 15, 2021, 1:18 PM UTC

myko wrote: post #693

prepend wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Trump was cancelled by the election, so that makes sense. People vote for lots of reasons so assuming that a voter supports every single issue is simplistic.

> Trump was cancelled by the election Only if you believe mainstream media sources, if you step out of your bubble you will see that trump will be reinstated this August

I guess I should've added /s

Re: Some Americans are breaking out of political echo chambers

#918

Post by throwaway894345 » Tue, Jun 15, 2021, 1:30 PM UTC

dragonwriter wrote: post #877

throwaway894345 wrote: post #834

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Says whom? I suspect just about every avid connoisseur of American media who isn’t out to peddle a narrative, but I didn’t do a survey at our last quarterly meeting so I can’t tell for sure. :) > Not-strongly-denominational non-to-weakly (note the “a”; not a typo for “weekly”) practicing Christian, or similarly weakly-attached Jewish, seems to be the norm, outside of showed focussing on a distinct and different sub…

> Consider that the mainstay of virtually all pop culture are drugs, alcohol, and premarital sex, most or all of which are embraced by the “normal” characters but taboo among American Christians. Leaving aside the question of whether those are the mainstays of popular culture (the traditional formulation would drop alcohol and add rock-and-roll), that seems...distorted. While attitudes on some of those things differ…

Those pew links are certainly surprising with respect to Christian tolerance for premarital sex, but with respect to alcohol I should have been more clear that I was talking about binge drinking. In whichever case, the fact that half of Christians disapprove of premarital sex still makes it unlikely that the default is Christian (especially considering I suspect those attitudes represent a relatively recent shift, probably due in large part to influence on Christian attitudes by pop culture for several decades).

Anecdotally, I also ran this past my wife and a few friends and the consensus was pretty unanimous that the default character since at least the early 90s was secular. I did a little Googling for something more authoritative but couldn't find anything. It's an interesting question in any case.

Re: Some Americans are breaking out of political echo chambers

#919

Post by throwaway894345 » Tue, Jun 15, 2021, 1:40 PM UTC

jonathankoren wrote: post #878

throwaway894345 wrote: post #808

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This is true, but also underlines the very point the article was making. In the United States, Christianity is the default. Characters are typically only identified if the stray from the default But Christianity isn’t the default, secular is the default. When there are identifiably Christian characters, they are often some cringey stereotype (the religious clique in “Easy A”, for example). See also the link about “…

> But Christianity isn’t the default, secular is the default. When there are identifiably Christian characters, they are often some cringey stereotype (the religious clique in “Easy A”, for You seem to believe that in your face conservative white evangelical Protestants are the only Christians. This speaks more to your own biases than society’s. Every poll of Americans and religions shows Christianity as by far the m…

> You seem to believe that in your face conservative white evangelical Protestants are the only Christians. This speaks more to your own biases than society’s.

I grew up Catholic, went to Catholic school, "Hail Mary, full of grace, the lord is with thee, blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb Jesus", etc but carry on.

> Every poll of Americans and religions shows Christianity as by far the most popular choice.

More popular choice of what? Music? Films? Television?

> There is simply no way to square your idea that nonreligious is the default when over 70% of Americans identify as Christian.

Sure there is. The simplest conceivable explanation is that Hollywood doesn't represent a cross-section of the United States; that Hollywood skews more secular, and that those biases are what get represented in film. I suspect it's a bit more complex than that; I think the fact that the upper classes in general skew secular has a fair bit to do with it (not only the people who create the content, but also the people for whom the content is created). However, that's harder for me to defend.

> As for representation, I have no way verifying this, but I suspect there are more Roman Catholic characters in American film and television than conservative white evangelicals Protestants. If for no other reason than mass, iconography, and religious tchotchkes photography well. Hell, Catholics have the entire horror genre on lock. WEPs have what? Footloose?

I don't doubt this. I'm really not sure why you're framing this as a Catholic vs Protestant thing. I get the feeling you think I'm using "Christian" to mean "white evangelical protestant", but for the life of me I can't figure out why.

Re: Some Americans are breaking out of political echo chambers

#920

Post by fartcannon » Tue, Jun 15, 2021, 1:42 PM UTC

multiplegeorges wrote: post #211

fartcannon wrote: post #36

There's a thing that happened with the Canada subreddit. It used to be kind of an interesting sub where youd get neat Canada-wide local stories (mostly Ontario) that were genrally pleasant. It was a nice place to visit after being inundated with American politics. Then, sometime in the early 10s and it gradually became very partisan and political. Which, to clarify, means it got substantially worse. It, like the comm…

It's interesting to see how you've characterized what happened in r/canada. I think it is itself an example of polarization. r/canada used to be great, as you said, but it didn't become polarized in a right vs. left manner. The moderators were self-admitted alt/far-right people who were pushing a particular agenda. When the country as a whole votes left at a consistent 65-70%, then r/canada simply no longer represent…

It would be interesting to see how the country would vote without having to vote strategically.