Why no-one in America was arrested as part of Operation Ironside • Hacker News Board

Re: Why no-one in America was arrested as part of Operation Ironside

#41

Post by ur-whale » Tue, Jun 15, 2021, 12:45 PM UTC

londons_explore wrote: post #31

It's time to weaken the legal privacy protections of users, but strengthen the technical protection (encryption) and strengthen the requirement to notify users whose data has been accessed. I'd like so see police able to access any unencrypted data for any court sanctioned purpose, but within 6 weeks I'd like the owner of that data notified that the police have used their data and the reasons why. Then people can vot…

>It's time to weaken the legal privacy protections ...

I'm sure you do believe that, and that if you lift enough rocks for a long enough time, you will find a couple of weirdos who agree with you.

What you're basically saying is you want to relinquish legal protection in favor of technical protection.

First, you clearly have never been the target of the full force of the government (technical layers will be absolutely no protection), and second, thankfully, you're not a majority.

Re: Why no-one in America was arrested as part of Operation Ironside

#42

Post by lupire » Tue, Jun 15, 2021, 12:48 PM UTC

YetAnotherNick wrote: post #27

How was the app marketed? Is there any T and C? Doesn't this imply willful lying of government to its citizens. What's the guarantee that they aren't doing the same with contact tracing apps or other necessary apps?

Yes, the government allows itself to lie. The CIA famously abused a polio vaccine campaign to spy on people, possibly killing many people indirectly.

The guarantee on contact tracing aps is your trust that Apple and Google made them government-proof as they promised.

Re: Why no-one in America was arrested as part of Operation Ironside

#43

Post by throwaway0a5e » Tue, Jun 15, 2021, 1:01 PM UTC

helsinkiandrew wrote: post #40

MrBuddyCasino wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah I don't buy this for a second. US agencies are known to violate constitutional rights on a regular basis, usually without any repercussions. Yet in this scenario, where there doesn't even seem to be much innocent bycatch they're Doing It By The Books?

Do they ever violate constitutional rights in cases that involve a huge number of agents and agencies and are front page news all over the world? This wasn't someone not being read their miranda rights in the back of a police car - it was a huge international operation that got a lot of press and attention.

Exactly. Big operation means senior oversight. Senior oversight means people who care about politics and optics are involved.

Someone at the FBI probably got a verbal briefing from foreign agents about the US users and what they were engaged in and then decided that a dozen mid level drug suppliers wasn't worth yet another political fight over the 4th amendment, international coordination that effectively circumvents it and the legality of drugs themselves.

Remember, federal agents didn't get their shoot first ask questions later reputation from nowhere. Their bosses aren't blind to this. Each one of those fifteen doors you kick in comes with a non-zero risk that you create another Brianna Taylor or Vicky Weaver and in this day and age it might wind up in 1080p on Youtube before you can clamp down. What do you gain by this? Maybe you'll get a drug table photo op but it will be nothing like what CPB or the Coast Guard get when they bust a semi truck or a smuggling boat. You'll get to flaunt the fact that you took part in an international drug bust operation. But the public mostly doesn't care.

From the FBI's perspective the risk reward ratio of skirting the 4A to take part in this operation just just doesn't work out.

Re: Why no-one in America was arrested as part of Operation Ironside

#44

Post by hdhjebebeb » Tue, Jun 15, 2021, 1:03 PM UTC

lupire wrote: post #42

YetAnotherNick wrote: post #27

How was the app marketed? Is there any T and C? Doesn't this imply willful lying of government to its citizens. What's the guarantee that they aren't doing the same with contact tracing apps or other necessary apps?

Yes, the government allows itself to lie. The CIA famously abused a polio vaccine campaign to spy on people, possibly killing many people indirectly. The guarantee on contact tracing aps is your trust that Apple and Google made them government-proof as they promised.

I don't think you should be downvoted, but the polio campaign was lying to citizens of other countries, not domestically, which I think is the crucial distinction here.

Re: Why no-one in America was arrested as part of Operation Ironside

#45

Post by SiempreViernes » Tue, Jun 15, 2021, 1:23 PM UTC

hdhjebebeb wrote: post #44

lupire wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, the government allows itself to lie. The CIA famously abused a polio vaccine campaign to spy on people, possibly killing many people indirectly. The guarantee on contact tracing aps is your trust that Apple and Google made them government-proof as they promised.

I don't think you should be downvoted, but the polio campaign was lying to citizens of other countries, not domestically, which I think is the crucial distinction here.

Eh, how about the reasons for the Iraq war, or the nice brochures the AEC gave the people of Utah about the innocent fairy dust raining down on them from the atmospheric Nuclear Tests in Nevada ?

Re: Why no-one in America was arrested as part of Operation Ironside

#46

Post by vertis » Tue, Jun 15, 2021, 1:26 PM UTC

throwaway0a5e wrote: post #43

helsinkiandrew wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do they ever violate constitutional rights in cases that involve a huge number of agents and agencies and are front page news all over the world? This wasn't someone not being read their miranda rights in the back of a police car - it was a huge international operation that got a lot of press and attention.

Exactly. Big operation means senior oversight. Senior oversight means people who care about politics and optics are involved. Someone at the FBI probably got a verbal briefing from foreign agents about the US users and what they were engaged in and then decided that a dozen mid level drug suppliers wasn't worth yet another political fight over the 4th amendment, international coordination that effectively circumvents…

They didn't even have to skirt the rules to get the benefit. Even if it wasn't US criminals they still get to turn around and say "look, we made the world a safer place".

Re: Why no-one in America was arrested as part of Operation Ironside

#47

Post by vertis » Tue, Jun 15, 2021, 1:32 PM UTC

hdhjebebeb wrote: post #44

lupire wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, the government allows itself to lie. The CIA famously abused a polio vaccine campaign to spy on people, possibly killing many people indirectly. The guarantee on contact tracing aps is your trust that Apple and Google made them government-proof as they promised.

I don't think you should be downvoted, but the polio campaign was lying to citizens of other countries, not domestically, which I think is the crucial distinction here.

Just a reminder, the internet is global. Many people on HN, aren't from the US. Many aren't even from 5-Eyes countries.

This distinction is a bit shit. If US wants to portay itself as leader of the free world, it needs to stop acting like a them and us set of rules.

Re: Why no-one in America was arrested as part of Operation Ironside

#48

Post by rurban » Tue, Jun 15, 2021, 2:04 PM UTC

boomboomsubban wrote: post #3

>agents were not allowed to download or read any messages sent from AN0M accounts in the United States because of privacy laws. "Privacy laws" being the Fourth Amendment, which the article still makes it sound like they violated by downloading all the messages three times a week.

More like that they didn't go to a judge. Without court order it is much easier to continue working in the illegal underground.

So they couldn't make arrests of their informants.

Re: Why no-one in America was arrested as part of Operation Ironside

#49

Post by pc86 » Tue, Jun 15, 2021, 2:22 PM UTC

boomboomsubban wrote: post #3

>agents were not allowed to download or read any messages sent from AN0M accounts in the United States because of privacy laws. "Privacy laws" being the Fourth Amendment, which the article still makes it sound like they violated by downloading all the messages three times a week.

Yes, referring to 4A as a "privacy law" is sort of the jurisprudential equivalent of calling Tim Berners-Lee a "web developer."

Re: Why no-one in America was arrested as part of Operation Ironside

#50

Post by teclordphrack2 » Tue, Jun 15, 2021, 2:36 PM UTC

mannerheim wrote: post #8

kube-system wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> By the end of 2019, this third country was sending data to the FBI every Monday, Wednesday and Friday, according to the court document. > "This data comprises the encrypted messages of all the users of AN0MS with a few exceptions," the document reads. > Those exceptions included approximately 15 AN0M users in the United States. Sounds like the FBI got the data of everyone except the US users.

Isn't this the classic Five Eyes loophole? I'll spy on you, you'll spy on me, and we'll exchange notes.

Yes, its a feature not a bug.