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Animal testing is exploitative and largely ineffective

erichgrunewald.com

291–300 of 319 posts

Re: Animal testing is exploitative and largely ineffective

#291

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a ride, but let’s take it point by point. Firstly, I think it’s immoral for anyone to do it. I don’t think it’s immoral simply because I decided so. I think it’s fundamentally immoral, period. You continue by saying something to the effect of “good food is really important and plays a huge role in our life and animals go to great lengths to acquire good food”. To this, I completely agree. I never said otherwi…

> I think it’s fundamentally immoral, period Nope.

Nope, I don't think that? But I do?...

Re: Animal testing is exploitative and largely ineffective

#292
The author makes a couple of arguments. Some like "we should increase the quality of our research by doing more pre-registration because we are sacrificing these animals in the pursuit of science and when we do bad science we make the sacrifice for naught" yes 100%!!!

But when he argues that there is poor translatability from rats to people (true) so therefore we should try doing more in vitro studies or going directly into humans. I think as bad as rat/mouse studies are in vitro studies have even worse translatability.

Re: Animal testing is exploitative and largely ineffective

#293
post #266

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Meat and dairy are separate considerations. Not everywhere. In the US there is an incredible amount of overlap. For example, Male cows born in the dairy industry end up in the meat industry. But more specifically I don't see how they are separate in the context of this conversation? Aren't we just talking about the inefficiency of raising animals as a food source? >Anyway when you ask questions like the one above, p…

> I thought I was, I honestly wanted to know what the percentage of meat and dairy comes from pasture animals in the world. I guess I should of been more clear about that. Well, I confess I don't know the actual numbers. But most places on Earth don't have the intensive farming found in the Americas. > Aren't we just talking about the inefficiency of raising animals as a food source? Quite the contrary. In a sibling…

>Quite the contrary. In a sibling comment I discuss how ruminants are the most efficient way to turn inedible plant matter to food that humans can eat.

I hear you and agree with everything you say in the rest of your post. I think we are just coming from two different assumptions. My assumption is that with the population the world the and with the increasing middle class we are seeing an increase in meat and dairy consumption, to a level that cannot be met and hasn't been met, with pasture and grazing animals. Basically I agree with everything you have been saying about the efficiency of ruminants but as a viable way to feed the worlds population, my assumption is that it wont work and isn't working. If you look at places like the EU, Pig meat is their largest meat sector and factory farms account for 85% off all pig meat available on the market. (page 4: https://www.europarl.europa.eu/RegData/etudes/BRIE/2020/6520...)

The EU is not a singular case, the trend of farms moving towards intensive factory farms is happening everywhere. In my limited research, I couldn't find statistics on how much pasturing china does but I still thought this was interesting: "Today, China produces and consumes half of the world’s pork, produces nearly 20 percent of the world’s poultry, 10 percent of the world’s beef and is the fourth largest milk producer of the world." (https://www.iatp.org/documents/need-feed-chinas-demand-indus...)

Anyway I agree Factory Farming is a terrible "solution", and thinking about food production in the "most efficient" terms is not a approach to the problem either. I just don't think pasturing ruminant animals is a great solution either, I live in a rural farming community and I don't see it actually working. I'll just go eat my lintels and peas until I see a solution that makes any sense to me.

Re: Animal testing is exploitative and largely ineffective

#296

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Animals in the wild die in ways that are orders of magnitude more gruesome than what occurs in a slaughterhouse.

You may be unfamiliar with the activity that takes place in slaughterhouses, then. The other notable difference is that humans are directly responsible for slaughterhouses, and it's not a nutritional requirement. We don't lecture lions on any sort of ethics, now do we?

> We don't lecture lions on any sort of ethics, now do we?

Not yet, but we definitely should!

Re: Animal testing is exploitative and largely ineffective

#297

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You may be unfamiliar with the activity that takes place in slaughterhouses, then. The other notable difference is that humans are directly responsible for slaughterhouses, and it's not a nutritional requirement. We don't lecture lions on any sort of ethics, now do we?

> We don't lecture lions on any sort of ethics, now do we? Not yet, but we definitely should!

You’re welcome to lead by example, then.

Re: Animal testing is exploitative and largely ineffective

#298

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Animals in the wild die in ways that are orders of magnitude more gruesome than what occurs in a slaughterhouse.

You may be unfamiliar with the activity that takes place in slaughterhouses, then. The other notable difference is that humans are directly responsible for slaughterhouses, and it's not a nutritional requirement. We don't lecture lions on any sort of ethics, now do we?

> We don't lecture lions on any sort of ethics, now do we?

Doesn't the fact that we can consider such things while lions cannot cement the fact that we have dominion over animals?

Re: Animal testing is exploitative and largely ineffective

#299

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is that it's you who thinks it's "fundamentally immoral" to kill another animal to eat it. It's your morality and noone else is obliged to subscribe to it, just because you do. For instance, if I thought it's immoral not to eat meat because an animal died for you to eat its flesh and it's disgusting that you should let it go to waste, would you accept it if I tried to foist my morality upon you? I'm prett…

>You're essentially saying that we're in some sense, better than, superior, to other animals. But, isn't that claimed superiority exactly the argument used to justify killing and even mistreating non-human animals? You're confusing a certain kind of superiority (superiority in moral reasoning, for instance) with another one (the value of life). Humans are superior in the first respect (this is pretty uncontroversial)…

It doesn't sound like you really would, though. "I'd be interested to see if you have any counter-arguments, or rather, ones that haven't already been replied to"? Is that a way to ask for a frank exchange of views that predisposes your interlocutor to expect an honest and unbiased discussion? Because to me it sounds more like a preemptive dismissal of anyhing I'd possibly say.

I also don't like to hold internet conversations with commenters who talk of "arguments" like they're goals in football, whereby points are scored. If you want to exchange views because you think my views are useful to you, then please let me know that you want to have a genuine and constructive conversation. If you just want to win some culture war, then go away.

Re: Animal testing is exploitative and largely ineffective

#300
post #293

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I thought I was, I honestly wanted to know what the percentage of meat and dairy comes from pasture animals in the world. I guess I should of been more clear about that. Well, I confess I don't know the actual numbers. But most places on Earth don't have the intensive farming found in the Americas. > Aren't we just talking about the inefficiency of raising animals as a food source? Quite the contrary. In a sibling…

>Quite the contrary. In a sibling comment I discuss how ruminants are the most efficient way to turn inedible plant matter to food that humans can eat. I hear you and agree with everything you say in the rest of your post. I think we are just coming from two different assumptions. My assumption is that with the population the world the and with the increasing middle class we are seeing an increase in meat and dairy c…

Actually, I agree with you, I don't believe we can sustainably fulfill a demand for meat, especially beef, at the current rate that this demand is rising worldwide. But I also think that this demand is not a true need, rather it's an artificial need that is created by the over-supply of cheap meat by the food industry. Kind of like nobody needed to have smartphones, until everyone had smartphones and now everyone wants to have a smartphone because everyone else has one.

So I think it's a matter of controlling over-supply and reducing the excess of demand. One way I think could work to do this in a way that aligns with middle-class values is to promote a return to traditional, local cuisines and diets. For example, I come from a Mediterrannean country where the majority of the traditional diet is, well, typically mediterrannean, 80% vegetables, pulses and legumes, with tons of olive oil and tomato sauce on everything, and with meat eaten sparingly and most of the time replaced with dairy. Almost all traditional dishes are either vegan, or vegetarian because they include eggs or dairy. We do eat a lot of fish, which is also rapidly becoming impossible to produce sustainably, so that's another discussion to have. Of the meat we eat, most of it is chicken or pork, with sheep or goat eaten a few times a year, as a traditional treat during religious feasts.

In the place I live, sheep and goat farming is free range almost exclusively. I'm afraid pork production is another scandal of animal abuse, not different than factory farms for cows. The same goes for chicken, treating animals like industrial goods must absolutely be made illegal and damn the markets. On the plus side, pork and chicken are much more sustainable from an environmental point of view- and both kinds of animals are absolutely fantastic recyclers of matter that humans can't even consume. Incidentally, the traditional thing to do with whey left over from cheesemaking is to feed it to pigs. When my cheese fails, I feed it to the chickens :)

To my mind a large part of the problem is that most people choose to live in cities, away from food production. This has two effects. On the one hand, the people in the cities have no idea where their food comes from, they're insulated from the reality of animal abuse in factory farms and they even lose the ability to recognise good produce (both meat and plants) from bad. On the other hand, because the location of people is massively centralised, the production and distribution of food also becomes massively centralised.

In simpler words, it's impossible for everyone who lives in the city to have their little garden with their veg and a few chickens or a goat. Instead, the farms are all outside the city and the food is all in the supermarket shelves. If everyone could raise their own animals, grow their own vegetables, we would obviously be in a very different world, with far less animal abuse (certainly far less systematic animal abuse) and far less over-consumption: it takes a lot of work to care for an animal, it makes more economic sense to keep an animal for its milk so one can have dairy year round, rather than slaughter it and eat meat once, and it's also much harder to mistreat or even slaughter an animal for food when one has raised the animal from a baby (one will always find excuses to not do it today).

So a simple solution would be to keep the food where it is produced: in the countryside, away from the city. But then the city folks would literally starve and it wouldn't be about meat or veg anymore, it's just impossible to grow food in the city. So it's not really a practical solution at all.

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