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80% of tech could be built outside IT by 2024, thanks to low-code tools

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Re: 80% of tech could be built outside IT by 2024, thanks to low-code tools

#131
post #47

This idea gets recycled every generation. I can’t count how many “low code” no-programming-skills-required tools I’ve seen come and go in the last four decades. Both COBOL and SQL got presented in these terms. I’ve yet to see a “non-technical manager” write a non-trivial SQL query, much less know how to confirm they got the correct results. The various 4GL tools that proliferated in the 90s led to complex amateur spa…

Translating requirements into code - is about language and tools as you have to learn the language, as you noted "few people wanted to learn to use those". Third paragraph is saying about loads of amateur spaghetti code, so turns out it was not that hard.

So third paragraph contradicts things written in the second.

Low-code tools promise to address "problem of the language" so it is easy to translate business knowledge into the tool. Keep in mind low code tool should ideally be used by domain expert, so another promise is that you don't need business analysts and developers so problems with communication or misunderstanding is removed.

Going back to second paragraph:

Good part that was noted, there were loads of spaghetti apps in Access and File maker, let alone all those Excel sheets that are still everywhere. There was no one to maintain them and low code tools don't provide enough means for maintaining complex systems.

Running and maintaining computer systems is 80% of cost for software, maybe translating it into code is hard, but debugging, fixing, adjusting, keeping operational knowledge is much more expensive.

Silly Excel file that architect Jane was using for 5 years and then she quits, you hire John while you can do knowledge transfer - it is still hit or miss just as noted in second paragraph John will be more comfortable doing his own excel from scratch than learning what Jane did.

Even with developers it is the way that everyone wants to do "greenfield" and understanding what other people wrote before in some unfamiliar system is hard work. Low code even makes it harder to understand existing stuff with their GUIs.

Whole DevOps tooling/movement grew just because of that fact, none of the "low-code" tools is addressing it.

Re: 80% of tech could be built outside IT by 2024, thanks to low-code tools

#133

I doubt anyone here on hn will be impacted in any way by such tools. If anything it would be a positive impact as these tools aren't trivial to build. However it will impact wordpress developer types. I imagine a graph like tool where you drag and drop nodes and link inputs and outputs will make quite a few redundant. Stuff like signup -> confirmation email -> send spam every X days, or order -> get customer data ->…

The funny thing is that bubble.io (as one example) does this already. And it does it really well.

And now I look on freelancer.com and there's still people wanting to hire "bubble developers".

I have been talking to my tech illiterate friends what they think about "easy" no-code solutions like WordPress or squarespace.

The answer is always the same. It's all far too complicated and confusing.

If I presented someone like that with bubble.io and said "here is this node graph tool to connect..." I'd have lost them at node graph and they would never, ever learn, let alone like that thing.

Apple famously drive engineers crazy with their UI philosophy of hiding everything at the cost of control or customisation. But I have a feeling it works.

I feel that for many people, tech is this confusing thing that will never not be confusing because they've learned to expect that. At least my friends in their late 20s to 30s have fought with technology all their lives to the point where I don't know if anything can remedy that preset expectation.

So long as these people exist, we as engineers and developers can keep looking at these no-code tools and marvel at how simple things have been made, but I think we have to change our expectations and realise that even the simplest still has to become simpler.

The battle of trying to teach that generation technical concepts is a very hard one, when there are companies falling over each other trying to simplify everything to the point of almost, well, zero-effort? Maybe that's the next step: low-code, then no-code (but some effort involved) and then no-code, no-effort (aka you just sit there passively while a computer reads your brain and works out everything you want)

I say all of this while I'm building a no-code website builder that's looking more and more like it'll be targeting kids, the elderly and luddites, so I've had to do some thinking around this problem space recently.

Re: 80% of tech could be built outside IT by 2024, thanks to low-code tools

#134
post #47

This idea gets recycled every generation. I can’t count how many “low code” no-programming-skills-required tools I’ve seen come and go in the last four decades. Both COBOL and SQL got presented in these terms. I’ve yet to see a “non-technical manager” write a non-trivial SQL query, much less know how to confirm they got the correct results. The various 4GL tools that proliferated in the 90s led to complex amateur spa…

I've looked at a whole bunch of low code tools in the last two years and my opinion has shifted from high grade bullshit sold by the clueless to the even more clueless ('Now: coding for managers') to where I believe that the current crop of low code/no code platforms has something real to offer and has staying power for some use cases. Specifically: lots of forms based processing backed by relational DBs with occasio…

I have seen SaaS application owner who was thinking he could do SaaS with low code and cut the costs.

On his place I would be selling "low code" but that guy was severely shortsighted.

Re: 80% of tech could be built outside IT by 2024, thanks to low-code tools

#135
post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've looked at a whole bunch of low code tools in the last two years and my opinion has shifted from high grade bullshit sold by the clueless to the even more clueless ('Now: coding for managers') to where I believe that the current crop of low code/no code platforms has something real to offer and has staying power for some use cases. Specifically: lots of forms based processing backed by relational DBs with occasio…

I have seen SaaS application owner who was thinking he could do SaaS with low code and cut the costs. On his place I would be selling "low code" but that guy was severely shortsighted.

I'm sure there are countless examples of this. But even so: there is a vast number of applications out there that are more complex than 'excel' and much simpler than 'bespoke software', and that niche is widening as these platforms become more capable.

Re: 80% of tech could be built outside IT by 2024, thanks to low-code tools

#137
Honestly? I hope so. Problems that can be solved by 'low-code tools' are boring. There will always be more difficult problems to solve that fall outside of the basic use cases (e.g. CRUD / forms) and I'd rather be working on those.

Though I do think there will still be work for programmers, there will always be some point where the business wants something that isn't supported by the tool - just wonder if those low-code tools allow for customization (e.g. plugins).

Re: 80% of tech could be built outside IT by 2024, thanks to low-code tools

#138

It's been around 8 years since this happened: I started learning R and a Gartner consultant told me I was wasting my time because, "as Gartner puts it", the future of data science is citizen data scientists with very little coding skills because the tools and frameworks will do all the heavy lifting. I ignored him because I liked the language anyway. I guess every now and then someone will try to sell a tool to "buil…

This. I've just built out an internal CRM for my travel company using Airtable+StackerHQ.com and for my business, it's hands down better than anything commercially available... because it covers all the nuance of our individual situation. 2 months ago, I was a bit down on no-code, but the experience on building on Stacker was good enough to change my mind. Softr.io is also getting there, too.

> because it covers all the nuance of our individual situation.

Without wanting to downplay your achievement, I've worked for organisations that did the same thing with MS Access back in the early oughts.

The 'custom' application grew with the organisation. Features were bolted on over the years inelegantly. It was impossible to integrate easily with other systems.

The quirks of the system were known by long time employees who developed work arounds that were convoluted and took time.

UX wasn't a thing back then; but if it had been people would have definitely said it had terrible UX.

We've been promised these solutions for a long time. In my experience, they overpromise and underdeliver.

Re: 80% of tech could be built outside IT by 2024, thanks to low-code tools

#139
post #110

As a programmer, I am hoping the low-code future comes true. Many of the comments here seem critical (and rightly so). It is naturally to be critical as the no-code/low-code approach overpromised before, and its hypothetical success (if ever) will threaten the job security of the many in the HN crowd. However, the existence of low-code tools means that coders can focus more on the complex problems and/or work with th…

The problem with low-code isn't that it's going to take away my job, it's that my job is going to get harder because low-code tools don't make it possible to do every task with code. If you're stuck using a closed-source tool that gates certain functionality behind a UI and doesn't provide an API to automate it, then you've got to either replace the tool entirely, or put a human in the loop doing a repetitive task.

Re: 80% of tech could be built outside IT by 2024, thanks to low-code tools

#140
post #110

As a programmer, I am hoping the low-code future comes true. Many of the comments here seem critical (and rightly so). It is naturally to be critical as the no-code/low-code approach overpromised before, and its hypothetical success (if ever) will threaten the job security of the many in the HN crowd. However, the existence of low-code tools means that coders can focus more on the complex problems and/or work with th…

This is exactly how I feel, I just wonder if they can work together? If a company wants some basic CRUD / form / report functionality, please use a tool to build it - it's absolutely mind numbing to develop. But what if it needs to integrate into another system, or needs to be combined with an external source and produce results (trying to name things possibly outside of the tools scope) - how can we as developers hook into it? Are they stuck with the tool unable to fulfill their business needs / weird hybrid things / move away from the tool?

It's gonna be interesting when it happens.

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