Live data from Hacker News

Myths in cycling: wider tires are slower

renehersecycles.com

81–90 of 419 posts

Re: Myths in cycling: wider tires are slower

#81
post #12

This is one of the reasons I love the emergence of the "Gravel" category of bikes. They look and have geometry similar to a road bike, but they have enough clearance for nice fat gravel tires. I ride in Chicago (shitty roads, potholes & construction are everywhere), and love that I can put nice 38mm+ GravelKing Slick tires on the bike, and still have no problem keeping up with most road bikes. I've gotten funny looks…

I used to ride thin-tire road bikes but a year ago I bought a Mercier Kilo WT (WT is for "wide tire") which is a light road frame with a fork that allows beefy gravel tires. I don't think I'll go back to thin-tire road bikes.

Re: Myths in cycling: wider tires are slower

#82
post #2

If that were the case, surely Tour de France riders would use wider tyres to gain more grip going around corners, especially in time-trials or stages with sprint finishes. Doesn’t a greater surface area touching the floor means more frictional effects when pushing against the road?

One thing every person has missed so far is that often the TDF riders are on rather narrow bikes with very little clearance.

This helps give an aerodynamic profile. Even at a few watts, this is considered worth it. You would likely have to do a lot of research to go with bigger wheels, as that would been wider fork, and thus throw off aerodynamics.

A bit daft, in my opinion, given that it's mainly the domestiques who are in the wind and the ones behind, and in the peloton, can be putting out significantly less energy. May even be better for recovery having a bit more comfort on the bike through wider tyres with a bit lower pressure.

Re: Myths in cycling: wider tires are slower

#83

Narrow tires also require higher pressure with a less comfortable ride. Bigger riders, Clydesdales, require more pressure. These rock hard tire inflations are then more prone to snake bite flats. As the discussion section in the article points out, wider tires used to be common. I think we're rediscovering why.

Snake bite flats are precisely from low pressure. The term comes from two punctures that come from the rim pinching the tire, which is due to inadequate pressure to absorb an impact. Rock hard tire inflations are prone to failure from the pressure itself.

I short handed it a bit. My point was that this 'low pressure' for heavier riders is higher than it is for lighter riders. If you don't increase your tire pressure, the same pressure will cause more snake bites for a heavier rider than it would for a lighter rider.

Re: Myths in cycling: wider tires are slower

#84

Is the data available somewhere ? It doesn’t match my experience at all. I have a road bike and a gravel bike - same quality range (gravel slightly higher). At low speeds, that may be true - the difference is negligible. But at higher speeds / power outputs, the road bike beats the gravel hands down - by a significant margin (big enough to be felt, without a power meter)

My impression from reading articles and technical reports about this is that there's a couple of things going on.

First, I think the wider-tires-are-faster argument has to be appreciated in the context of the narrow-tires-are-faster argument that dominated for a long time. With the latter paradigm, you wanted your tires as narrow as possible, with some lower boundary constraint due to wheel and tire thinness limitations, maybe around 20-21mm. The former paradigm emerged in part in contrast to that, in that "wider" doesn't mean "infinitely wide" but rather "wider than what's typical for people striving for narrower tires". Some of the arguments about rolling surface area are maybe understood in that context -- the patch of tire in contact with the road maintains the same area as a minimal area under the narrow tire paradigm, and then it starts to become larger, at which point you start increasing friction theoretically with more tire surface area in contact.

The other argument for wider tires is about impedance gains due to wider tires -- decreased vibrations basically. This is different than decreased or equal rolling resistance per se. However, there are eventual aero losses for wider tires, as well as weight increases (which then increase rolling resistance). Eventually these aero losses and weight increases overshadow any impedence gains, and the wider tires' costs exceed their benefits.

This is the sort of thing about cycling that is frustrating to me. I love cycling, but so many mechanical factors get really oversimplified: costs aren't often realistically assessed against actual gains, and sometimes gains are very restricted in the circumstances under which they apply. Disc brakes, for example, are safer, but you see little discussion about whether the safety margin they afford actually would make any practical difference in scenarios in which accidents typically occur (e.g., where a car is coming from the side or a blindspot), and they're often heavier and less aero (so yes, they save your carbon wheels, but you almost have to have deep section carbon wheels to make up for their weight and aero costs to begin with). I'm not saying disc brakes are a bad thing, but I think in practice their gains are more complex than is often made out to be. In the same way, wider tires are probably more optimal than a lot of people thought in, say, 1985. But I think the pendulum has swung a bit too indiscriminately in the other direction at the moment. What's probably most accurate is to say you want the widest tire that affords some impedence gains given your typical riding surface, and not anything wider.

Aero effects increase exponentially (?? polynomially?) with speed (that is, as your speed increases, aero effects become more of a factor in further speed increases), which would match your experience. As your speed increases, the wider tires become more and more of a burden, and require higher wattage to compensate for.

All sports with any significant tool involved are full of misperceptions and myths, not supported by science. Cycling is full of them, but it's not the only athletic discipline like that.

Re: Myths in cycling: wider tires are slower

#85
Can anyone recommend serious science and engineering sources on bicycles? I've looked hard and only found a couple:

* Bicycling Science by David Gordon Wilson: Book by MIT mechanical engineering professor, going back four editions to the 1970s. https://mitpress.mit.edu/books/bicycling-science-fourth-edit...

* "Bicycle Technology" by SS Wilson in Scientific American (Mar 1973): Great starting point on the technology and it's development. PDF: http://veterancycleclublibrary.org.uk/ncl/pics/Bicycle%20Tec...

Here's a few more I haven't yet pursued:

* Journal of Science and Cycling: Open access online journal https://www.jsc-journal.com/

* International Human Powered Vehicle Association (IHPVA) and World Human Powered Vehicle Association (WHPVA): Apparently one association that split acrimoniously in the 2000s. I haven't pursued this.

* Cycle Engineers Institute (CEI) (UK)

* European Cyclists Federation (ECF)

I'd love to find other publications, and a community and forum. When I ask around at bike shops, most people refer me to Park Tools, which isn't what I'm after.

Re: Myths in cycling: wider tires are slower

#86
post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I bought a Specialized Diverge over a year ago. It was mostly to commute to and from work, but also to have the ability to take gravel paths and trails on the weekends. It's been awesome but friends have suggested I take off the stock tires and add some new ones. Is it really worth it? The tires are already fairly fat already, at least compared to road bike tires.

The Diverge was on my shortlist when I got the Topstone. At the time (2019), I think the Diverge defaulted to skinnier smoother tires. Can’t remember which tires specifically. The Topstone shipped with some pretty knobby WTBs that definitely had an impact on rolling resistance. If your tires are knobby/optimized for off-road, putting a slicker tire (the GK slicks are quite popular for good reason), I suspect you’ll n…

They came with 35mm "roadsport flak jacket" https://www.specialized.com/us/en/roadsport/p/155765?color=2....

They're pretty smooth overall, perhaps why I never really had an issue commuting with them, but I'm always looking to go faster!

Re: Myths in cycling: wider tires are slower

#87
post #60
post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Foot placing definitely, I love clipped in shoes for that. You don't pull though. I can ride equally as fast on flats, as I can clipped in. I've gone on 80km bike rides with people who are clipped in while I'm using flats, and it's the same. Clipped in is more comfortable, in my experience, it's not faster.

I’ve done many 100 mile+ sportives and have done both pushing down and pulling up.

You've done it just pulling up?

Re: Myths in cycling: wider tires are slower

#88

Is the data available somewhere ? It doesn’t match my experience at all. I have a road bike and a gravel bike - same quality range (gravel slightly higher). At low speeds, that may be true - the difference is negligible. But at higher speeds / power outputs, the road bike beats the gravel hands down - by a significant margin (big enough to be felt, without a power meter)

This is an old article that compares tires in the 20-25mm range. The bike industry has moved to wider tires and 25 or 28mm tires are now quite common on road bikes, and gravel bikes have much wider tires. I would be the optimum is around 25 or 28 for road bikes on typical roads, especially as aerodynamics become a bigger factor.

Re: Myths in cycling: wider tires are slower

#90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you have a source? Anecdotally I've found clipless to make my power transfer more efficient. Some quick googling shows this seems to be true: "Mean power output was higher using clipless pedals ( = 617 watts, SD = 112) than toe-strap ( = 572 watts, SD = 77), and flat ( = 566 watts, SD = 83)." [1] [1] https://scholars.fhsu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1118&c...

I was a life long flat pedal rider. Started working at a bike shop during college and one of the first things roadies told me was they are indeed much more efficient because you can push AND pull on your pedals - generating a lot more power and making the ability to sustain that power a lot easier.

I use clip ins now, have for about 5-6 years. I don't think you actually pull up.
Post reply on HN