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Myths in cycling: wider tires are slower

renehersecycles.com

71–80 of 419 posts

Re: Myths in cycling: wider tires are slower

#71
post #69
post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s the first order effects, however substances deform under pressure which is just one of many complexities involved. For car tires on dry pavement you get maximum grip from racing slicks. Unfortunately they need to swap in the rain.

[deleted]

Believe it or not, I have actually researched the "do wider tires grip more" topic (though not recently). I'm not simply extrapolating from high school physics class on friction. But, that's the executive summary.

Re: Myths in cycling: wider tires are slower

#72
post #27

wider tires also let you run lower pressures, which puts you more in the comfort zone of being able to convert to tubeless. not every rim/tire combination works with tubeless, but if you are able to pull it off, it's among my personal top 5 list of cycling innovations of the past 30 years.

I'm missing something: How do lower pressures lead to tubeless?

Narrow tyres tubeless is a no-go as the high-psi required to get the tyre seated and shaped can cause blowouts, especially if you get impact such as a pothole.

Going for wider tyres means you naturally can go lower PSI, but if you drop PSI with tubes you risk pinch-flats ('snakebites'), where striking a hard edge causes both edges of the tyre to puncture (like X___X on the cross section, rather than \__x_/ of a normal puncture). If you go wide, you can then drop the pressure more as you don't have a tube to pinch. This gives you the great comfort, the pliability to absorb road imperfection (which improves speed), and less likelihood of puncture.

As an approximate pressure guide:

    # weight in kg. front load probably 0.45 (45%). tyre width in mm
    weight_front = weight * front_wheel_load
    weight_rear = weight * (1 - front_wheel_load)

    psi_front = (338.14 * weight_front / tyre_width ** 1.5785) - 7.1685
    psi_rear = (338.14 * weight_rear / tyre_width ** 1.5785) - 7.1685
This should ballpark you 15% tyre deflection under load, which was a guide from an old bike magazine on a balance of rolling resistance and comfort.

Re: Myths in cycling: wider tires are slower

#73
Makes my day to see this company on HN. Their Barlow Pass tires in tubeless setup have been an excellent addition to my commute bike. Supple, great handling. There's an efficiency lost on a gravel setup vs road bike, but that's mostly the geometry than the tire.

Re: Myths in cycling: wider tires are slower

#74
> in theory, wider tires are faster due to their shorter contact patch, which deforms less as they roll

What is meant by "contact patch"? If it means 'portion of tire in contact with the ground': Assuming the tires are the same circumference, I'd expect the front-to-back dimension of the contact area to be the same, and being a wider tire, the side-to-side contact dimension to be larger, creating a larger contact area.

And given equal force on the tires, wouldn't the same force deform a smaller contact area more, not less? What am I misunderstanding?

> Laboratory tests on steel drums eliminate the rider and thus the suspension losses. If you look at hysteretic losses alone, narrow tires run at higher pressures and thus flex less, meaning they absorb less energy.

> We tested on real roads, with a rider on the bike, and found that the increased vibrations of the narrower tires caused energy losses that canceled out the gains from the reduced flex. These suspension losses are mostly absorbed in the rider’s body.

How do hysteretic losses apply here?

And, why does the increased vibration cause energy losses (which I take to mean reduced efficiency of energy used for movement)? If the energy is absorbed by the tire or is transferred via other bicycle components to the rider, what's the difference in energy loss/efficiency?

Re: Myths in cycling: wider tires are slower

#75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No data other than anecdotal but totally agree. I use flats on my road bike and look like an idiot but I go just as fast. I prefer to be able to wear normal shoes so I have less to carry. The whole "you can push while you pull" thing makes no sense, my quads are way more powerful than my hamstrings and you never need that much force when pedalling anyway, cardio fitness is always the limiting factor for me, not leg s…

"You can push while you pull" never made much sense to me on the road. Because, you're right, those muscles aren't as efficient, so you're just going to have to pay the expenditure back with interest. But, off-road, it can occasionally be useful to give 'er one or two extra firm strokes to help power over a small rise or whatever.

Off road the trade-off for me has always been "how quickly can I bail when things go wrong?". With spiky flats and sticky shoes I don't really have any problems with making enough power.

Re: Myths in cycling: wider tires are slower

#76
post #12

This is one of the reasons I love the emergence of the "Gravel" category of bikes. They look and have geometry similar to a road bike, but they have enough clearance for nice fat gravel tires. I ride in Chicago (shitty roads, potholes & construction are everywhere), and love that I can put nice 38mm+ GravelKing Slick tires on the bike, and still have no problem keeping up with most road bikes. I've gotten funny looks…

I bought a Specialized Diverge over a year ago. It was mostly to commute to and from work, but also to have the ability to take gravel paths and trails on the weekends. It's been awesome but friends have suggested I take off the stock tires and add some new ones. Is it really worth it? The tires are already fairly fat already, at least compared to road bike tires.

If they’re causing you problems, consider replacing them. Otherwise I’d just wait until you get a flat — no point in spending money on something which isn’t a problem. You’re commuting so you’re reliably putting on mileage without [presumably] getting in to dodgy situations or trying to shave every second or gram off.

Re: Myths in cycling: wider tires are slower

#77
post #27

wider tires also let you run lower pressures, which puts you more in the comfort zone of being able to convert to tubeless. not every rim/tire combination works with tubeless, but if you are able to pull it off, it's among my personal top 5 list of cycling innovations of the past 30 years.

I'm missing something: How do lower pressures lead to tubeless?

[deleted]

Re: Myths in cycling: wider tires are slower

#78

> in theory , wider tires are faster due to their shorter contact patch, which deforms less as they roll What is meant by "contact patch"? If it means 'portion of tire in contact with the ground': Assuming the tires are the same circumference, I'd expect the front-to-back dimension of the contact area to be the same, and being a wider tire, the side-to-side contact dimension to be larger, creating a larger contact ar…

If you're going OVER imperfections (i.e. high pressure tyres), you lose some energy going 'up'.

If you go THROUGH imperfections (lower pressure) you don't lose so much energy going 'up' as the tyre absorbs rather than bounces you.

Re: Myths in cycling: wider tires are slower

#79

> in theory , wider tires are faster due to their shorter contact patch, which deforms less as they roll What is meant by "contact patch"? If it means 'portion of tire in contact with the ground': Assuming the tires are the same circumference, I'd expect the front-to-back dimension of the contact area to be the same, and being a wider tire, the side-to-side contact dimension to be larger, creating a larger contact ar…

The contact patch is the portion of tire that is touching the road. A wider tire should have a smaller contact patch... Maybe. A wider tire means the force can be spread out more and should deform the tire less. So the front to back dimension will differ.

Re: Myths in cycling: wider tires are slower

#80
post #5

Another one is that clip in pedals make you faster.

My first impulse, given the loads of data to the contrary, was to just hit that down arrow and move on. But that's not fair, so I'll instead throw out: "got a citation for that?"

There's been studies from Bath University, but

https://gearmashers.com/clipless-pedals-vs-flat-pedals-faste...

Here are 2 dudes that did a trial, they produced more watts going up hill in flats, sprints were a big difference though. These were people used to being clipped in, and not using flats.

Where's the studies to the contrary? Nothing I've seen has been more than marginal at best.

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