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Some Americans are breaking out of political echo chambers

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Re: Some Americans are breaking out of political echo chambers

#721
post #623
post #564

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The middle between truth and lie is a lie. The middle between torture and fredom is less bad torture. I could continue, but that is the point.

All of humanity does not agree with your personal subjective assessment of "the truth", whatever that is supposed to even mean.

If you are determined to pick middle of all issues, you are not superior neutral thinker. Instead, you are enabler for whoever is bigger lier or whoever is set up to cause more harm.

People dont have to have same opinions as me. But the contemporary idea that if you position yourself in the middle you are doing good by definition is wrong.

Re: Some Americans are breaking out of political echo chambers

#722
post #650

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Sigh- voted against Trump twice. You cannot vote "against" someone in any election except a recall. Who you voted for is who you voted for . Simple example: When I voted for Howie Hawkins in 2020, who was my vote "against"?

I don't know how to characterize my votes any other way. Voted Libertarian this election and McMullin last. Both were ways to keep my vote away from Trump, though I had historically voted near straight party Republican most years (never actually straight ticket, just close.) Going forward no party gets my allegiance and I'll vote per person/issue, but Trump was the turning point. When you feel a civic duty to vote, b…

>When you feel a civic duty to vote, but none of the candidates are really acceptable, I'll vote 'against' the worst by picking the least objectionable, until the whole country gets the Nevada option of 'none of the above.'

...you cannot vote 'against' anyone in an election.

In 2020, I think I wrote myself in for about 8 different positions in my locale, because I won't vote for anyone I don't support. Sure I may not have won that time around, but I didn't assist anyone I didn't actively want to win. Guilt free voting.

Re: Some Americans are breaking out of political echo chambers

#723
post #518
post #346

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Attacking the center is always the craziest narrative to me. It's saying: not only is it not okay to disagree with me and be on the other side, it's also not okay to not passionately agree with my exact side. The only right way to view these complex issues is to sign your name to join my party and then hold the party line, and everything else is unethical. I can't imagine a more obnoxious political viewpoint than tha…

I think your flavor of centrism is actually relatively rare. That you distrust both sides I think is the key to enabling 'the good kind' of centrism. Many with a similar viewpoint would call themselves Independent to separate themselves from the parties. The issue lies is the false dichotomy of the two-party system. Centrists I interact with often seem to view the world as if the two party lines are a single dimensio…

> The issue lies is the false dichotomy of the two-party system. Centrists I interact with often seem to view the world as if the two party lines are a single dimension and that a rational 'compromise' position can be found somewhere in the middle.

As a self-proclaimed centrist, it's weird to me that anyone who calls themselves a centrist thinks this way.

For me, I see both sides as being correct sometimes but also blindly agreeing with anything else they come up with even if it's wrong. It kind of negates any good ideas because, to me, they don't come from a point of reasoning or critical thinking, but from tribalism.

I disagree with a lot from the left, usually because (these days) it's unscientific. I disagree with a lot from the right, usually because it's uninformed, religious, or inhumane - and also, unscientific.

However, there are some good ideas financially coming from the (American) right that I think would work well for the US. I say this living in (and enjoying) Germany, which is largely what the left views as "socialism".

As well, living in San Francisco for a few years prior, there are of course a lot of good humanitarian efforts coming from people mostly based on the left - including renewable energy, for example, which seems to be wholly rejected by conservatives.

To me, what "makes sense" is oftentimes owned by one of the sides, and sometimes owned by neither. I'm often found to be politically homeless, and thus why I call myself a centrist - usually my viewpoints have some relation to one of the parties' extreme standpoints but generally nowhere near the fanaticism they exude (e.g. I'm what the Twitter left calls a "trans-medicalist", whereas the right tends to completely deny the humanity of trans individuals entirely).

I don't think people who claim that all issues can have a solution "somewhere in the middle" are centrist. I think they're undecided, uninformed, weak-thinkers, or people pleasers - or some mixture of those things. I myself have strong, solid opinions that oftentimes don't align with either side - hence why I call myself a centrist.

Re: Some Americans are breaking out of political echo chambers

#724

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Context aside, that sounds like it would have been a powerful film. A denier face to face with an eyewitness, presumably with the eyewitness prepared with all of the innumerable pieces of indisputable evidence. Talk about losing, that's losing.

I've read and even said a lot of uncomfortable things on the internet, but seeing someone lament the loss of not pitting a holocaust survivor with a denier probably takes the cake.

A lot of holocaust survivors have made very cogent cases against deniers, you may be underestimating their strength. Maybe some people couldn't do that, but other people could. It is a lot of people we are talking about.

Re: Some Americans are breaking out of political echo chambers

#725
post #346

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Attacking the center is always the craziest narrative to me. It's saying: not only is it not okay to disagree with me and be on the other side, it's also not okay to not passionately agree with my exact side. The only right way to view these complex issues is to sign your name to join my party and then hold the party line, and everything else is unethical. I can't imagine a more obnoxious political viewpoint than tha…

You mention both sides being terrible cesspools, but your concrete examples only hit out at what you deem to be progressive subreddits. One aspect of centrism is that it's generally people who either benefit from or want to maintain the status quo, without incurring the conflict that comes with stating so.

> One aspect of centrism is that it's generally people who either benefit from or want to maintain the status quo, without incurring the conflict that comes with stating so.

This absolutely is not true, it's simply the straw man that polarized extremists use to lampoon centrism. It's based on two faulty assumptions:

1. Centrists believe the right course of action is "in the middle" of both extremes on all issues. This is like assuming that every movie that gets rated 5/10 on average got rated 5/10 by everyone who watched it, rather than 1/10 by 50% of people, and 10/10 by the other 50%. It's certainly true that sometimes centrists will believe the truth is somewhere in the middle, but it can also mean that they agree with the more extreme view of one wing on some issues, and strongly disagree on others.

2. It also assumes that neither wing of the political spectrum is never interested in maintaining the status quo, which is rarely the case. There are some issues for which progressives are pro-change and conservatives are for the status quo, and vice versa. You could conceivably have a centrist who is for raising taxes and government provided universal healthcare, and against affirmative action and for increased border security or against legality of abortions. All of these positions would represent upending a point of the status quo that either conservatives or progressives are for maintaining.

The point is that too often, centrism is lazily painted as apathetic, uninterested in change, or unwilling to take a hard stance on anything. In reality, many centrists are simply not falling in line with a particular political faction consistently enough to be a supporter of any of them.

And this doesn't even consider those who are skeptical of the self-perpetuating propaganda narratives that have been increasing in intensity as the internet has matured. Some people are centrists not because they aren't for change or taking a stance, but because they express skepticism at the narratives constantly being thrust upon us through the media and the internet. This doesn't equate to "both sides are right", or even "both sides are wrong", it is closer to "both sides have demonstrated a willingness to lie for their agenda, so I want to take things on a case by case basis rather than blindly throw my support at one".

Re: Some Americans are breaking out of political echo chambers

#726

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Jonathan Haidt (who is mentioned in the article) did a study years ago. He separated a group of people into conservatives and liberals and then gave them a questionnaire on politics. Then he got a second group, separated them, and gave them the same questionnaire. Only he asked the second group of liberals and conservatives to answer the questionnaire the way they imagined the other side would. What he found was that…

Yeah, that doesn't surprise me at all actually. I'm sure both side demonize the other to some extent, and it's our natural reaction to look at them both as equally bad like we're disciplining two siblings or something, but it really seems that right now the left is more melodramatic in the demonization than the right. In my personal experience, quite a few people I've met seem to think if you disagree with them, you…

It's all part and parcel of the same problem. The default media narrative bubble leans heavily to the left.

People trapped in that bubble are overly confident in what they believe. They aren't often exposed to arguments and data that are contrary to what they're told to believe over and over whenever they turn on the TV. So when these trapped people are confronted with opposing arguments or data, they resort to the easy mechanisms that relieve their cognitive dissonance. "You're a racist" "You're a homophobe" "You're a white supremacist" "You want sick people to die in the streets"

Re: Some Americans are breaking out of political echo chambers

#727

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Economist is one of the least biased sources of news, that routinely publishes letters, opeds and articles contradicting the sated editorial agenda. Very few other news sources actually do that. They're not perfect, but it sure beats NYT. If you want the optimal news coverage without needing to read a million sources - The Economist, Financial Times, WSJ and The Guardian.

As I said, they show both sides, but they choose which two. They are not as forthcoming with their biases as it seems. They mainly set up their ideological oppositions as conservatives, but they in fact have a lot in common with them. This is especially true for foreign relations. I'd be happy to see examples of articles that go against the Economists' editorial agenda in profound ways and that pertain to foreign pol…

> This is especially true for foreign relations.

Their latest issue literally has a massive article against vaccine nationalism. Their opposition to breaking of the Iranian deal.

> A good barometer I have for journals as far as foreign policy is their coverage of the Iraq War before it began

That's very arbitrary, considering that 18 years have passed. The Economist has changed hands and most of its staff.

> 4 centrist anglophone sources

4 sources that aren't radical, have clear motivation behind them. Money makes people write in a particular way, that is easy to gauge.

Also - why would I read insane crap on either side, my job isn't to read news all day.

Re: Some Americans are breaking out of political echo chambers

#728
post #564

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The middle between truth and lie is a lie. The middle between torture and fredom is less bad torture. I could continue, but that is the point.

That sounds like a great philosophy. Who gets to decide what is truth and what is a lie? Case in point. The Pulse Nightclub shooting 5 years ago. Proven the shooter chose it because of lax security compared to other places he considered. He didn't know it was LGBTQ+. It was about Syria, Afganistan, and other middle eastern wars to him. Now it is hailed as persecution of the LGBTQ+ community - a target. Who is doing t…

>Proven the shooter chose it because of lax security compared to other places he considered. He didn't know it was LGBTQ+. It was about Syria, Afganistan, and other middle eastern wars to him.

How? By whom? Why should we trust you or your sources?

Your thesis is that no one can be trusted to decide what is truth and what is a lie... then you follow up with several "facts" which clearly share a common ideological bias. Like most people who pretend only to be concerned with the integrity of the truth and ask "who controls the truth? Who watches the watchers?", you're just attempting to move the Overton window by pretending an anti-leftist narrative is a neutral one.

Re: Some Americans are breaking out of political echo chambers

#729

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Jonathan Haidt (who is mentioned in the article) did a study years ago. He separated a group of people into conservatives and liberals and then gave them a questionnaire on politics. Then he got a second group, separated them, and gave them the same questionnaire. Only he asked the second group of liberals and conservatives to answer the questionnaire the way they imagined the other side would. What he found was that…

Not sure why you are getting downvotes. For anyone curious, Haidt is a liberal professor who is dedicated to figuring out how to get people talking across political ideologies. The book that covers this topic is called The Righteous Mind and is an excellent read or listen.

It's being downvoted exactly for the reason that this topic is important.

Too many people are hopelessly trapped in their narrative bubbles and unable to calmly evaluate arguments against what they've been taught to believe.

Re: Some Americans are breaking out of political echo chambers

#730
post #700

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Might get far enough: this entire thread is flagged.

Well, that's frustrating.

Once you only care about silencing those who would point out fascism, it becomes easy enough. Watchful moderation willing to act is necessary.

I'm unsurprised that HN is being exploited this way, but I am pleasantly surprised that there are people seeing them in operation like yourself and the others speaking up.

The truth gets buried, ultimately, not by these bad-faith arguments, but by the giant thread above consisting of those who prefer to live in the world of the 90s where Republicans and Democrats worked to further their specific interests collectively in an organized fashion, and listening to both sides made sense.

I don't know if the memo is going to get out: those Republicans are gone. Those days are gone. Once the party has turned fascist I don't think there's going back, it's not like they can turn away from their deceived or delusional voters.

HN isn't a politics forum, its only function is to provide value for YCombinator. It can't address these foundational failures in human thinking.

But it's informative to see it struggle and fail.

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