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Some Americans are breaking out of political echo chambers

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Re: Some Americans are breaking out of political echo chambers

#651

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm currently a registered Pacific Green, lean left, and on the political compass I'm basically smack dab on top of Bernie Sanders (whom I voted for and donated to in the 2016 primaries). And have never voted Republican. So his observation is about my own "side" more or less. But I'm totally unsurprised to see this downvoted here only 18 minutes in. Here's a short article on the paper: https://ricochet.com/76902/arch…

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I recommend watching his TED talk. It goes into more detail, and expounds on the abstract underpinnings of both liberal and conservative morals. They're very different. The axes apply even outside America, consistently.

Re: Some Americans are breaking out of political echo chambers

#652
post #501

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You do realize that people that manage the subscriptions aren't the same that write the content, right?

If you can't opt out of one but not the other, is this distinction meaningful?

Yes. Substance is critical here.

Arguing that Economist is bad, because it was complex to cancel your subscription (I see a massive button on my account page) is like arguing that a restaurant is bad, because they don't accept gold coins as payment.

Re: Some Americans are breaking out of political echo chambers

#653

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean, sure, but why are we talking about Fox specifically? CNN, MSNBC, etc. are just as bad. I find this ironic since this thread is about how bias isn't necessarily about outright falsehoods, but story selection and what is not said :)

Jonathan Haidt (who is mentioned in the article) did a study years ago. He separated a group of people into conservatives and liberals and then gave them a questionnaire on politics. Then he got a second group, separated them, and gave them the same questionnaire. Only he asked the second group of liberals and conservatives to answer the questionnaire the way they imagined the other side would. What he found was that…

Has this study been repeated recently (rather than 2012). Very curious to see if/how the results have changed of late.

Re: Some Americans are breaking out of political echo chambers

#654
Wired has gotten considerably more political lately, which is a major disappointment. I canceled my print subscription to them for this reason.

I have full access to Washington Post and Wall Street Journal. I go to Wired to read about tech, not some worse version of a take made in WaPo or WSJ.

Re: Some Americans are breaking out of political echo chambers

#655
post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

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> CNN isn't biased to the liberal or conservative viewpoint, it is biased towards clicks and views. Bullshit. CNN is in the tank for the corporate wing of the Democratic party. > A lot of the blame for trump gaining acceptance as a viable voting option belongs to CNN for *uncritically promoting* him and giving him coverage. Absolute bullshit. You believe CNN was pro-Trump in 2015/2016? Every single story/show was abo…

> Bullshit. CNN is in the tank for the corporate wing of the Democratic party.

Bullshit. CNN repeatedly focused on trump to the detriment of other candidates because he generated clicks and views.

> Absolute bullshit. You believe CNN was pro-Trump in 2015/2016? Every single story/show was about how terrible he is.

It's hard to report on him without it being obvious how terrible he is. Most of the reporting in 2015/16 were about his zany antics, in your face racism, and sexual assault admissions - but still free airtime.

> I think you're the one with a false version of reality if you believe CNN was/is pro-Trump.

I said they're pro-clicks and views, and trump was a vehicle for that, which helped him get elected. You should work on reading comprehension.

Re: Some Americans are breaking out of political echo chambers

#656

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What would you think the ideology of the Economist is and where in their website do you get that from? Just asking for the sake of argument.

They routinely repeat that their editorial policy is liberal. Straight up in the articles they publish, they note that. I listen to their articles and they often repeat this. Literally typing this into Google would have provided you with the link to their website. https://www.economist.com/news/2020/06/19/frequently-asked-q...

From that webpage, they say that their bias is between classical liberalism and centrism.

Now, what is a classically liberal bias, concretely, as far as international affairs are concerned?

Re: Some Americans are breaking out of political echo chambers

#657
post #612
post #570

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Anyway yeah, I'm a centrist and it's not because I'm trying to be neutral, it's because both sides are terrifying cesspools You aren't being neutral. Your position is a very strong affirmative for the current status quo. You don't want anyone to be able to enact change. That's an understandable position, but it isn't neutrality. Especially not if the status quo is actively negative for certain people. As an aside, t…

Not the OP, but I'll counter: >You aren't being neutral. Your position is a very strong affirmative for the current status quo. You don't want anyone to be able to enact change. It's not that I don't want ANYONE to enact change, I just don't want people with extreme views enacting change. And it's this all-or-nothing discussion that drives the country apart and makes for little or no common ground on major issues. Th…

>It's not that I don't want ANYONE to enact change, I just don't want people with extreme views enacting change.

This position sounds fine until you realize all it has done is shift discussion away from the effectiveness and correctness of a given policy, to a pre-discussion of the reasonableness of that policy. The heuristic replaces the thing itself. "Is this an extreme position?" replaces "Is this good policy?"

This is fine when public discourse is a never-ending deluge of extreme ideas: 'should we commit genocide?' - let's not even bother working through that one.

However, in practice this position is often used to prevent or shut down discussion of social legislation aimed at fixing publicly broken but privately lucrative policy positions.

Is single-payer healthcare too extreme an idea for the states? Regardless of your answer you've likely seen this exact form of argument. It adds nothing to the discussion and creates a presumption that the status quo is correct.

The inverse position isn't 'Is single-payer healthcare good?', it's 'Is remaining on employer funded healthcare too extreme an idea for the states?' Note how the existence of the status quo makes this an uphill battle - how can what already exists be too extreme?

Everyone wants the policies they want. Being able to define the policies they do not want as 'extreme' is just an extra tool to ossify and slow legislative change. Which, again, is itself a position to take.

Re: Some Americans are breaking out of political echo chambers

#658

The elephant in the room is that this sort of enlightened centrism, while it sounds noble, rests on several ill-formed assumptions. The first is that, by reading from both sides, they’ll balance and you’ll arrive at an enlightened center. This assumes the Overton Window is balanced, stationary, and not tilted to one side or the other. You’re beholden to the good judgement of each side to not move themselves further l…

First and foremost: I agree with you on all counts regarding enlightened centrism.

Second: I think there's some value to increasing awareness of counter-arguments. I do not believe that good discourse inevitably drives out bad, but I do think there are practical advantages when people I agree with understand opposing arguments, and I think some percentage of people I disagree with will think twice if they know more.

(Yeah, you can figure out which are which from my comment history, but I like a good Rawlsian veil of ignorance.)

There is definitely a line between "all sides are of equal value" and "this is what the different sides are saying." It's a difficult one to draw. The stated intent of Ground News seems quite good, for example.

Re: Some Americans are breaking out of political echo chambers

#659

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have you considered not “identifying”? Just choose your opinions on issues a la carte. Or even don’t have an opinion on a bunch of issues. I started doing that and now I’m kind of politically homeless but oh well. I do notice that I can talk to either side now which is cool and no one automatically puts up their defenses.

I went the other way: I started by outright refusing to label or identify myself politically and picking opinions a la carte, and over time most of my opinions on the things I care most about tended to converge on one political ideology, so I've started to generally identify with that ideology as a result. There's notable exceptions, which I do keep in mind, but they tend to be just exceptions. (Of course, even then…

I think the really frustrating thing is that these side issues for some of us (like gun control) take center stage so much and so loudly that we're effectively forced into listening to and arguing about things that are low on our personal considerations.

Re: Some Americans are breaking out of political echo chambers

#660
post #8

I tried this experiment: read nytimes, wapo, fox, national review and politico. I wanted to get different perspectives. However, I encountered a bunch of issues: They dont talk about or even cover the same things, which makes it hard to compare liberal vs conservative perspectives. This is the most common form of bias I've come across. In the rare case they do cover the same thing, many articles either simply do not…

I do the same thing, and I've noticed that this "they don't present the other side" thing is getting worse with time. I recently read [this HuffPo article][0] about how only 1% of American film characters are identifiably Muslim ; however, nowhere in the article does it even mention the share of Americans who are Muslim, nor the share of movie characters that are of other religions. These things are certainly obvious…

Good catch. As someone who works with data for a living I know that just about all stats need context to be meaningful. I notice a lot of stats in news given without context as you have noted.

When analyzing data typically the first thing you do is take out the outliers and then focus on the remaining data. News outlets do the opposite, the take the outlier and make it the headline story and ignore the other 99% of the data.

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