Some Americans are breaking out of political echo chambers • Hacker News Board

Re: Some Americans are breaking out of political echo chambers

#611

Post by boredprograming » Mon, Jun 14, 2021, 7:42 PM UTC

throwaway8582 wrote: post #555

boredprograming wrote: post #445

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fox news personalities frequently allow Trump and his allies airtime where they lie about losing the election to Biden. I don't know how you get any less truthful than that

How about making up fake stories about Russian prostitutes and hackers to try and overturn the results of an election that didn't go your way? Anyone that wants to complain about Fox News and let CNN, MSNBC, NYT, WaPo, and the rest of the "mainstream" media outlets slide for printing that garbage after the 2016 election is not being intellectually honest.

Russians did try to influence the election, the Mueller report resulted in many indictments.

Trump pardoned 2 of those convicted for lying to the FBI during these investigations, George Papadopoulos and Alex van der Zwaan

And when did anyone try to overturn the election results? Hillary conceded within days. Trump still hasn't.

You're in la la land, no point talking to you

Re: Some Americans are breaking out of political echo chambers

#612

Post by mlac » Mon, Jun 14, 2021, 7:42 PM UTC

ABCLAW wrote: post #570

anm89 wrote: post #346

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Attacking the center is always the craziest narrative to me. It's saying: not only is it not okay to disagree with me and be on the other side, it's also not okay to not passionately agree with my exact side. The only right way to view these complex issues is to sign your name to join my party and then hold the party line, and everything else is unethical. I can't imagine a more obnoxious political viewpoint than tha…

>Anyway yeah, I'm a centrist and it's not because I'm trying to be neutral, it's because both sides are terrifying cesspools You aren't being neutral. Your position is a very strong affirmative for the current status quo. You don't want anyone to be able to enact change. That's an understandable position, but it isn't neutrality. Especially not if the status quo is actively negative for certain people. As an aside, t…

Not the OP, but I'll counter: >You aren't being neutral. Your position is a very strong affirmative for the current status quo. You don't want anyone to be able to enact change.

It's not that I don't want ANYONE to enact change, I just don't want people with extreme views enacting change. And it's this all-or-nothing discussion that drives the country apart and makes for little or no common ground on major issues. The US Federal laws impact hundreds of millions of people. In most cases, this requires gray areas, exceptions, and a one-size-fits-all approach leaning to one extreme or another creates externalities and negative consequences. People who hold extreme views either don't feel these consequences, don't know them, or do not care about them. If they did, then they wouldn't be in the extreme.

For any given situation there are extremes and some path of action between the two that is optimal. Let's say an infected finger - there are extremes (do nothing, cut it off) and an optimal path (some treatment). If OP is in the "some treatment" standpoint, he or she is not advocating for inaction (inaction is actually an extreme in this case), but may be advocating for an optimal, less aggressive approach.

Re: Some Americans are breaking out of political echo chambers

#613

Post by onethought » Mon, Jun 14, 2021, 7:42 PM UTC

slumdev wrote: post #513

laputan_machine wrote: post #426

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you give an example of the second type? I see this kind of strawman argument against centrism all the time, yet I rarely see "worst of both worlds" outcomes in a political sense

Most Americans support an abortion ban, but they also support exceptions for rape or incest. If the fetus is a human person with rights, there should be no exception. If the fetus is not a human person with rights, then restrictions of any kind are unjust. The provenance of the fetus has no effect on the moral liceity of killing it. It's a lazy opinion formed by appeals to emotion.

As your example you use a weird right wing wedge issue.

How about science based climate change where people think you can literally compromise on physics/math and make 2+2=5 because 4 is just too inconvenient.

Edit: (I’ll clarify: Abortion is used as a kind of hack into the religious/cultural background of Americans. It is purposefully used to divide political debate in a non rational way).

Re: Some Americans are breaking out of political echo chambers

#614

Post by reedjosh » Mon, Jun 14, 2021, 7:43 PM UTC

standardUser wrote: post #463

_-david-_ wrote: post #351

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Excellent job not understanding what the opposite side believes and why.

I know what legislation they pass. "Believing" sounds nice and fun, but legislating directly impacts the actual lives of people.

This assumes that everyday conservatives believe in the republican representatives that end up in power.

I didn't even vote in the last election as I felt un-represented. For me there was no 'greater evil' candidate. Prior I voted libertarian, but what good does that do?

Does having voted a certain way for a candidate make your beliefs ultimately responsible for the way the representative governs? In America we essentially get `choose red or blue`.

How can the subjects as complicated as everyday topics are ever be reduced to two colors!?

The problem _is_ our tyrannical democratic system.

Re: Some Americans are breaking out of political echo chambers

#615

Post by dlp211 » Mon, Jun 14, 2021, 7:45 PM UTC

NaturalPhallacy wrote: post #519

mariodiana wrote: post #446

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Jonathan Haidt (who is mentioned in the article) did a study years ago. He separated a group of people into conservatives and liberals and then gave them a questionnaire on politics. Then he got a second group, separated them, and gave them the same questionnaire. Only he asked the second group of liberals and conservatives to answer the questionnaire the way they imagined the other side would. What he found was that…

I'm currently a registered Pacific Green, lean left, and on the political compass I'm basically smack dab on top of Bernie Sanders (whom I voted for and donated to in the 2016 primaries). And have never voted Republican. So his observation is about my own "side" more or less. But I'm totally unsurprised to see this downvoted here only 18 minutes in. Here's a short article on the paper: https://ricochet.com/76902/arch…

[flagged]

Re: Some Americans are breaking out of political echo chambers

#616

Post by anm89 » Mon, Jun 14, 2021, 7:46 PM UTC

cwkoss wrote: post #518

anm89 wrote: post #346

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Attacking the center is always the craziest narrative to me. It's saying: not only is it not okay to disagree with me and be on the other side, it's also not okay to not passionately agree with my exact side. The only right way to view these complex issues is to sign your name to join my party and then hold the party line, and everything else is unethical. I can't imagine a more obnoxious political viewpoint than tha…

I think your flavor of centrism is actually relatively rare. That you distrust both sides I think is the key to enabling 'the good kind' of centrism. Many with a similar viewpoint would call themselves Independent to separate themselves from the parties. The issue lies is the false dichotomy of the two-party system. Centrists I interact with often seem to view the world as if the two party lines are a single dimensio…

It's hard to say either way without getting into polling data but anecdotally, I would say the amount of people whos issue with American politics is that they trust both parties so much that they can't decide who they like so they settle for the middle is many orders of magnitude smaller than the number of people whose primary issue is that they feel a general sense of distrust with all of the parties.

Re: Some Americans are breaking out of political echo chambers

#617

Post by reedjosh » Mon, Jun 14, 2021, 7:46 PM UTC

standardUser wrote: post #601

reedjosh wrote: post #590

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think a large bit of conservative viewpoint today is that the government shouldn't even be involved in marriage. I don't at all care what you do with your life, and really I'd like it if you gave me the same courtesy. But, if you believe that because I consider myself more conservative than not, I must then hate your lifestyle, how can we ever come to a happy coexistence?

I don't think you hate anyone. I know that millions of voters reliably vote for candidates who are outspoken about oppressing specific groups of people, and who introduce legislation and vote in support of legislation that targets specific groups of people. I'm glad you don't care what I do with my life. If you vote for candidates that legislate in ways that do restrict my life, I ask that you please stop.

I replied below to another comment, but that reply fits here as well.

> This assumes that everyday conservatives believe in the republican representatives that end up in power. I didn't even vote in the last election as I felt un-represented. For me there was no 'greater evil' candidate. Prior I voted libertarian, but what good does that do?

> Does having voted a certain way for a candidate make your beliefs ultimately responsible for the way the representative governs? In America we essentially get `choose red or blue`.

> How can the subjects as complicated as everyday topics are ever be reduced to two colors!?

> The problem _is_ our tyrannical democratic system.

Re: Some Americans are breaking out of political echo chambers

#618

Post by rictic » Mon, Jun 14, 2021, 7:46 PM UTC

cwkoss wrote: post #518

anm89 wrote: post #346

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Attacking the center is always the craziest narrative to me. It's saying: not only is it not okay to disagree with me and be on the other side, it's also not okay to not passionately agree with my exact side. The only right way to view these complex issues is to sign your name to join my party and then hold the party line, and everything else is unethical. I can't imagine a more obnoxious political viewpoint than tha…

I think your flavor of centrism is actually relatively rare. That you distrust both sides I think is the key to enabling 'the good kind' of centrism. Many with a similar viewpoint would call themselves Independent to separate themselves from the parties. The issue lies is the false dichotomy of the two-party system. Centrists I interact with often seem to view the world as if the two party lines are a single dimensio…

I don't think I've ever heard someone argue that the rational position is the compromise in the middle. I have heard people argue that it's the only politically available option in one circumstance or another, which makes sense because the structure of American democracy creates a strong pressure for there to be two parties of approximately equal power.

When I talk to people I generally hear people taking specific positions on specific issues, which often but not always aligns with their preferred political party's position on that issue.

Re: Some Americans are breaking out of political echo chambers

#619

Post by [deleted] » Mon, Jun 14, 2021, 7:47 PM UTC

beprogrammed wrote: post #565

mariodiana wrote: post #446

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Jonathan Haidt (who is mentioned in the article) did a study years ago. He separated a group of people into conservatives and liberals and then gave them a questionnaire on politics. Then he got a second group, separated them, and gave them the same questionnaire. Only he asked the second group of liberals and conservatives to answer the questionnaire the way they imagined the other side would. What he found was that…

Then he turned to his conservative flock and said 'See? We ARE smarter than them!'

[deleted]

Re: Some Americans are breaking out of political echo chambers

#620

Post by slowhand09 » Mon, Jun 14, 2021, 7:47 PM UTC

watwut wrote: post #564

anm89 wrote: post #346

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Attacking the center is always the craziest narrative to me. It's saying: not only is it not okay to disagree with me and be on the other side, it's also not okay to not passionately agree with my exact side. The only right way to view these complex issues is to sign your name to join my party and then hold the party line, and everything else is unethical. I can't imagine a more obnoxious political viewpoint than tha…

The middle between truth and lie is a lie. The middle between torture and fredom is less bad torture. I could continue, but that is the point.

That sounds like a great philosophy.

Who gets to decide what is truth and what is a lie?

Case in point. The Pulse Nightclub shooting 5 years ago. Proven the shooter chose it because of lax security compared to other places he considered. He didn't know it was LGBTQ+. It was about Syria, Afganistan, and other middle eastern wars to him.

Now it is hailed as persecution of the LGBTQ+ community - a target. Who is doing this? Politicians, activist, etc.

Who decides what the truth is? Why do they spin the lies as truths? This is societies problem today. Manipulation of fact and fiction by those who want to control you, and those who control the message.

Inaguration Day at the US Capitol. Police officer killed after being struck in the head with a fire extinguisher. No proof, not even a strand. Now thought to have had a stroke. Pols, pundits, and Trump haters still swear he was MURDERED. Female protester killed by capital police - still no identification which officer did it, or what she was doing when shot. Sound like open&shut case of self-defense? Wouldn't they sing that from the heavens?

How about Jeffery Epstein? How did he hang himself in a maximum security facility where two video cameras failed, and guards checked him frequently? Guilty - probably. I'm surprised if they aren't taking bets on when girlfriend Ghislaine Maxwell committed suicide. Who else was involved in their island escapades? Who benefits from their silence?

Who controls the truth?