Some Americans are breaking out of political echo chambers • Hacker News Board

Re: Some Americans are breaking out of political echo chambers

#51

Post by throwaway894345 » Mon, Jun 14, 2021, 4:07 PM UTC

phkahler wrote: post #47

pmoriarty wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"(According to [1], only 1% of Americans are Muslim, and 60+% are Christian--and I would be shocked if 60+% of American film characters are identifiably Christian never mind [how they are portrayed][2])" Yet both Muslims and Christians are in the news a lot, and there's a lot of political discussion about them. It would be refreshing if more mainstream fictional media featured them in realistic, three-dimensional por…

>> It would be refreshing if more mainstream fictional media featured them in realistic, three-dimensional portrayals rather than as faceless stereotypes Yes and no. First, so much media has fallen down when it comes to character development. Then there's the problem of big companies like Disney that are deliberately secular in their content.

> First, so much media has fallen down when it comes to character development.

That's the handy thing about essentialism, you don't need an individual character when you have pre-packaged narratives about their race, gender, etc. Rather than a complex character, we get a canned Black character or a canned White character or a canned Female character or a canned Male character. What do you need to know about a person that you can't infer from their immutable characteristics? (:

Re: Some Americans are breaking out of political echo chambers

#52

Post by abrahamepton » Mon, Jun 14, 2021, 4:08 PM UTC

nateberkopec wrote: post #20

vsskanth wrote: post #8

I tried this experiment: read nytimes, wapo, fox, national review and politico. I wanted to get different perspectives. However, I encountered a bunch of issues: They dont talk about or even cover the same things, which makes it hard to compare liberal vs conservative perspectives. This is the most common form of bias I've come across. In the rare case they do cover the same thing, many articles either simply do not…

> They dont talk about or even cover the same things, which makes it hard to compare liberal vs conservative perspectives I remember seeing Twitter chatter from the right re: the Fauci email dump, and so I went on various liberal outlets to try to get the left-wing perspective, and it was complete crickets. Especially when it's something I can't just read and form an opinion on myself (Fauci's email dump was absolute…

Was it massive? My impression was that it was exactly what you'd expect - basically a nothingburger, a few interesting tidbits, most of the sensational stuff was taken out of context and/or already known and/or flatly misrepresented.

What are some things that we should have taken away from the Fauci emails that the broader left/centrist medias missed?

Re: Some Americans are breaking out of political echo chambers

#53

Post by XorNot » Mon, Jun 14, 2021, 4:08 PM UTC

heresie-dabord wrote: post #35

api wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One thing a lot of people miss is that there is a profit motive here. You can make money, sometimes a lot of money, by building a huge social media following being a political outrage merchant. You can find examples of people doing this on all sides, especially at the extremes where outrage and other powerful negative emotions can most easily be stirred up. All the outrage over "cancel culture" is not about censorshi…

> make money [...] by building a huge social media following being a political outrage merchant. I think you have summarised both the nature of the US "information economy" and the state of political discourse in the US.

When you want to know why Fox News does anything it does, just take a look at it's marketshare [1]. That's why.

[1] https://www.statista.com/statistics/373814/cable-news-networ...

Re: Some Americans are breaking out of political echo chambers

#54

Post by commandlinefan » Mon, Jun 14, 2021, 4:10 PM UTC

benzible wrote: post #42

AllSides buys wholesale into right-wing framing. By what measure is CNN's news coverage on the leftmost side of the spectrum? Is MSNBC really the equivalent of Jacobin or Mother Jones, especially when it devotes 3 hours each morning to center-right Morning Joe? https://www.allsides.com/media-bias/media-bias-ratings

> By what measure is CNN's news coverage on the leftmost side

"The latest Trump scandal shows how much we must still discover about his presidency's assault on democracy"

"Trump's DOJ continued to pursue a CNN reporter's records even after a federal judge called the reasoning 'unanchored in any facts'"

"A senate report reveals new details about the stunning security breakdowns ahead of the January 6 attack but omits Trump's role"

"Ex-president Obama says he never thought the darkness that rose in the GOP during his tenure would reach the party's epicenter"

"Exclusive audio of a 2019 phone call shows how Rudy Giuliani pressured Ukraine to investigate baseless conspiracies about Biden"

These are CNN headlines from just the past week.

Re: Some Americans are breaking out of political echo chambers

#55

Post by pmoriarty » Mon, Jun 14, 2021, 4:10 PM UTC

throwaway894345 wrote: post #49

pmoriarty wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"(According to [1], only 1% of Americans are Muslim, and 60+% are Christian--and I would be shocked if 60+% of American film characters are identifiably Christian never mind [how they are portrayed][2])" Yet both Muslims and Christians are in the news a lot, and there's a lot of political discussion about them. It would be refreshing if more mainstream fictional media featured them in realistic, three-dimensional por…

> Yet both Muslims and Christians are in the news a lot, and there's a lot of political discussion about them. I'm not sure what your point is? That Muslims and Christians should be grateful that the news media talks about them a bit more than the entertainment media? To be clear, I'm not arguing that any particular group should have more representation; I'm criticizing the media for its increasingly propagandist ang…

"I'm not sure what your point is?"

My point is that religious people, whether Christian, Muslim, or whatever, have a serious impact on our lives, and it would benefit everyone if we engaged with them as real people rather than fantasy stereotypes.

Fictional media can help with this by giving us insight in to what people are really like. My contention is that this is more desirable than merely leaving them as faceless talking points in the news.

Re: Some Americans are breaking out of political echo chambers

#56

Post by abrahamepton » Mon, Jun 14, 2021, 4:11 PM UTC

arcticfox wrote: post #25

nateberkopec wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> They dont talk about or even cover the same things, which makes it hard to compare liberal vs conservative perspectives I remember seeing Twitter chatter from the right re: the Fauci email dump, and so I went on various liberal outlets to try to get the left-wing perspective, and it was complete crickets. Especially when it's something I can't just read and form an opinion on myself (Fauci's email dump was absolute…

From someone else's link, this Tangle site seems pretty solid. Specifically on Fauci's emails: https://www.readtangle.com/p/dr-anthony-fauci-emails-coronav...

Just read that and...there's nothing. Fauci's one of the most prominent people on the planet, dealing with one of the worst pandemics in recent human history, so I'd honestly expect his emails to contain way more interesting stuff than what the Tangle pulled out. If that's all there is, no wonder it's crickets from everybody except the right, who have an obvious interest in discrediting Fauci and a notable disinclination to give a shit about facts.

Re: Some Americans are breaking out of political echo chambers

#57

Post by Noos » Mon, Jun 14, 2021, 4:12 PM UTC

Nah, the echo chambers are tightening into dominant and submissive; it seems like people are because they are reacting to patently extreme behavior, but in reality modern culture is very much a leftist dominant narrative with a submissive conservative boogeyman narrative.

The issue to me is more that the extremes are so extreme as to be unworkable; you have people being unironic nazis, monarchists, and marxist-communists, so anything else will seem sane and balanced. But it's definitely not being out of an echo chamber.

Re: Some Americans are breaking out of political echo chambers

#58

Post by throwaway894345 » Mon, Jun 14, 2021, 4:14 PM UTC

pmoriarty wrote: post #55

throwaway894345 wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Yet both Muslims and Christians are in the news a lot, and there's a lot of political discussion about them. I'm not sure what your point is? That Muslims and Christians should be grateful that the news media talks about them a bit more than the entertainment media? To be clear, I'm not arguing that any particular group should have more representation; I'm criticizing the media for its increasingly propagandist ang…

"I'm not sure what your point is?" My point is that religious people, whether Christian, Muslim, or whatever, have a serious impact on our lives, and it would benefit everyone if we engaged with them as real people rather than fantasy stereotypes. Fictional media can help with this by giving us insight in to what people are really like. My contention is that this is more desirable than merely leaving them as faceless…

Ok, so are we in agreement? Your original response sounded like you were expressing disagreement.

Re: Some Americans are breaking out of political echo chambers

#59

Post by XorNot » Mon, Jun 14, 2021, 4:15 PM UTC

Noos wrote: post #45

api wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One thing a lot of people miss is that there is a profit motive here. You can make money, sometimes a lot of money, by building a huge social media following being a political outrage merchant. You can find examples of people doing this on all sides, especially at the extremes where outrage and other powerful negative emotions can most easily be stirred up. All the outrage over "cancel culture" is not about censorshi…

Not really. Like a recent cancel attempt was Scott Cawthon, creator of the game series Five Nights at Freddy's. His crime? Voting for trump. No really, that's it. His games weren't political, and while he was open about who he was, he pretty much seemed to be inoffensive in practice. But since his fanbase has a lot of LGBT, they felt betrayed because he did so, and as far as i know he was definitely not trolling them…

> But since his fanbase has a lot of LGBT, they felt betrayed because he did so

The LGBT community was [1] and still are violently attacked for the mere act of existing. The idea that people's political beliefs, what, don't affect other people who live in that country? Is insane.

Voting is a political act which affects others. If someone votes for a politician who gives cover and support to a group which - as an example - believes atheists are unfit to have the right to vote - then they are voting to strip the right to vote from me and I do not and will not support them or their personal enterprises.

1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stonewall_riots

Re: Some Americans are breaking out of political echo chambers

#60

Post by Grim-444 » Mon, Jun 14, 2021, 4:15 PM UTC

vsskanth wrote: post #8

I tried this experiment: read nytimes, wapo, fox, national review and politico. I wanted to get different perspectives. However, I encountered a bunch of issues: They dont talk about or even cover the same things, which makes it hard to compare liberal vs conservative perspectives. This is the most common form of bias I've come across. In the rare case they do cover the same thing, many articles either simply do not…

"They dont talk about or even cover the same things" - this is the number one fake news tactic in play. I'm not sure what to call it, but it's a 2x2 matrix -

If a group is left-leaning, they'll report on everything good about the left and everything bad about the right, If a group is right-leaning, they'll report on everything good about the right and everything bad about the left. For example, you'll almost never see CNN write an article critical about Democrats, and you'll almost never see Fox News write an article critical about Republicans. So you end up without much overlap between the two.

They'll only report on the same things when those common things are important enough / loud enough to where they can't ignore it, or when they're able to put their own political interpretation on it when telling the viewer what to think.