Forget going back to the office – people are just quitting instead • Hacker News Board

Re: Forget going back to the office – people are just quitting instead

#381

Post by luffapi » Mon, Jun 14, 2021, 1:11 PM UTC

disgruntledphd2 wrote: post #378

luffapi wrote: post #371

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No it eliminates them. In office drinking, office romances, listening to petty personal problems… all completely vaporized in wfh.

You're just not on those Zoom calls. Presumably the office romances/drinking sessions are gone, but politics continues unabated. Perhaps this is fine for you, but I want to point out to others that just because you don't see this happening anymore, doesn't mean that it has actually stopped happening.

> Presumably the office romances/drinking sessions are gone

That’s a huge win and those aren’t the only detriments eliminated when you don’t force grown adults into a high school like environment.

Re: Forget going back to the office – people are just quitting instead

#382

Post by hn_throwaway_99 » Mon, Jun 14, 2021, 1:21 PM UTC

gmadsen wrote: post #307

hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #233

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you are very much correct - for all the people lambasting working in an office, I hope they realize it will mean they will be competing against a much larger swath of humanity. Also, I'm glad you highlighted "Mexico or Brazil". Unlike decades past where lots of outsourcing was done to India, I think many people now realize the inherent inefficiencies when teams are 12 time zones apart. The Americas don't have…

I think realistically this is very far a way. South America does not have schools that compete with MIT and Stanford.

Some of the best software developers I've ever worked with were from Brazil.

Re: Forget going back to the office – people are just quitting instead

#383

Post by cableshaft » Mon, Jun 14, 2021, 1:22 PM UTC

claytonjy wrote: post #173

endymi0n wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I hear this a lot of times recently — what I'm interested by now is where the new equilibrium will be going forward. So far us software engineers have often seen jobs as replaceable and we know we'll have another one at the snip of a finger should we quit. But with enough people actually quitting, how many remote or soon-remote companies will there be to scoop up the supply until quitting an office job cold could be…

I changed jobs recently, though not because the old one was going to make me come back to the office. I've never seen such a frothy job market, I had multiple offers for fully remote roles with a 20%+ raise. I'm a data engineer in the Midwest with just under a decade of experience. All these companies seem to be hiring plenty of other roles and levels of seniority as well.

You motivated me enough to finally update my Linked-In and mark it open for work. I'm also in the Midwest (near Chicago).

If you don't mind me asking, to what extent did you put yourself out there? For the longest time I just pursue whatever recruiters reach out to me, but I think I should probably do more active searching this time around.

Re: Forget going back to the office – people are just quitting instead

#384

Post by notacoward » Mon, Jun 14, 2021, 1:37 PM UTC

neilwilson wrote: post #262

xvector wrote: post #3

Can’t imagine not having at least partial WFH after this pandemic. If my office doesn’t let me WFH, I will also be leaving. A good portion of my team is similarly minded, but management is insistent on disallowing WFH. I can’t wait to see their faces when the company bleeds massive swaths of engineering talent. It’s about damn time that companies realized that they ought to treat their employees like the adults that…

The 'hybrid model' is just a marketing trick to try and force people back to offices using the Fear of Missing Out routine. It's classic foot in the door sales psychology. Go find a firm that has genuinely embraced full remote and understands that remote can only work properly if everybody is operating in the same mode - precisely to avoid the natural tendency of people to ignore others that aren't in the physical ro…

> natural tendency of people to ignore others that aren't in the physical room

It's not just ignoring them, but making it hard for them to get a word in edgewise, or sometimes even to hear what others are saying. Most of the time it's not even intentional. It's getting caught up in the moment, and/or failing to adapt to an environment where different etiquette is necessary.

> Go find a firm that has genuinely embraced full remote

Just to be clear, truly embracing remote works means more than just having butts in seats in homes instead of in an office building. There are still plenty of people out there making most decisions in the same kind of clique-only conversations they used to have in the office, excluding not only people in different time zones but those who are just more socially/culturally distant from the inner circle. Truly embracing remote work means adopting an asynchronous workflow that makes information and conversation available to any team member at any time. Requiring them to be in the right place at the right time to gain full participation isn't embracing remote work, even if that "place" is a videoconference call.

Re: Forget going back to the office – people are just quitting instead

#385

Post by notacoward » Mon, Jun 14, 2021, 1:44 PM UTC

marcinzm wrote: post #31

Raed667 wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm struggling with the idea of hybrid WFH. It still means that I need to live near the office. Instead of a cheaper, quieter place far away from cities. Besides making middle-management happy, I'm not sure what is the benefit of having one required day per week at the office.

I've found that it's much harder to form social bonds, especially cross-team, when working remotely and never seeing people in person. Socializing via Zoom is not the same. The lack of lunch and hallway conversation hurts a lot without even getting into the outside of work socializing. That in turn leads to minor issues exploding because no one has a sense of empathy built for anyone else.

I think that occasional in-person contact is important to avoid the "erosion of trust" that I've seen occur over and over again working full-time remote at multiple companies for most of a decade before COVID. Even famously all-remote teams have relied on periodic conferences and summits to maintain that contact. It works. It's why I never balked at travel requirements - as often as monthly - during those remote jobs.

The key is to recognize that the in-person contact is part of the mix to enhance empathy/connectedness and for those few situations where a multi-way high-bandwidth conversation is necessary. Planning sessions are an example IMO. Understanding how people really feel about priorities etc. is important, but often involves interpreting facial expressions and body language that aren't captured (or conveyed well) on video. Making it a part of your every day team work environment puts you into an entirely different and no longer remote-friendly milieu.

Re: Forget going back to the office – people are just quitting instead

#386

Post by disgruntledphd2 » Mon, Jun 14, 2021, 1:53 PM UTC

luffapi wrote: post #381

disgruntledphd2 wrote: post #378

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're just not on those Zoom calls. Presumably the office romances/drinking sessions are gone, but politics continues unabated. Perhaps this is fine for you, but I want to point out to others that just because you don't see this happening anymore, doesn't mean that it has actually stopped happening.

> Presumably the office romances/drinking sessions are gone That’s a huge win and those aren’t the only detriments eliminated when you don’t force grown adults into a high school like environment.

For you. For the happy marriages that didn't happen, probably not.

I suggest that lots of this WFH/WFO stuff is super personal, and what benefits one may disadvantage another, so it'll be interesting to see how all of this pans out over the next few years.

Re: Forget going back to the office – people are just quitting instead

#387

Post by doctor_eval » Mon, Jun 14, 2021, 2:06 PM UTC

marcus_holmes wrote: post #365

doctor_eval wrote: post #353

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not going to say you're wrong, but you are making assumptions that don't necessary apply to me. I don't generally do huge whiteboarding sessions with the whole team. Typically I write detailed technical documentation about what I'm trying to achieve, and how I think it should be done, which I share with the team who are implementing it. It's typically only when they don't understand something that I jump on the w…

I get that, I'm not saying that you might be making the same specific mistake that I did (large whiteboarding sessions). I'm saying you might be making the same generic mistake I did (assuming that because I enjoy something, and no-one is complaining, the whole team enjoys it). And that's purely because when you described it, you sound a lot like I did before I learned that lesson. As you say, I'm making assumptions.…

Oh I’d never say I’m sure of anything! In fact your comment did affect me, and I’ll be thinking about it a bit over the next few days.

It’s like the old saying, that it’s difficult for us to see ourselves as others do.

Re: Forget going back to the office – people are just quitting instead

#388

Post by doctor_eval » Mon, Jun 14, 2021, 2:09 PM UTC

marcus_holmes wrote: post #367

doctor_eval wrote: post #355

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If they don't thrive in that environment, maybe they are in the wrong environment? Is it important that the org bends to the will of a subset of workers with specific preferences, or is it important that we get a group of people who are going to get the work done? I suppose I'm firmly in the latter group. I have goals that I need to achieve; I need a crew that can achieve them; and whoever I pick necessarily has to b…

I really suggest you read up on management styles and leadership. Again, you sound a lot like I did before I got my eyes opened. And the leadership stuff in my MBA really helped me to see where I got this so badly wrong.

I appreciate your advice but I’m a bit of an old hand now. I appear to be coming across more forcefully than I actually act.

It’s really important to me that my team is happy, and with half the team following me from a previous job I’m fairly confident that they are happy with my style.

But that’s an assumption of course, and it’s always better to get evidence.

Re: Forget going back to the office – people are just quitting instead

#389

Post by muyuu » Mon, Jun 14, 2021, 2:09 PM UTC

strgrd wrote: post #10

xvector wrote: post #3

Can’t imagine not having at least partial WFH after this pandemic. If my office doesn’t let me WFH, I will also be leaving. A good portion of my team is similarly minded, but management is insistent on disallowing WFH. I can’t wait to see their faces when the company bleeds massive swaths of engineering talent. It’s about damn time that companies realized that they ought to treat their employees like the adults that…

The hybrid model is such a joke. For most, working in the office might as well be the 21st century business suit: an antiquated formality designed to demonstrate your obedience to authority. The hybrid model is a suit on a t-shirt. And forcing employees to be in the office X days a week means productivity on those WFH days will be nonexistent, especially if they butt against a weekend. But of course while the WFH lif…

I feel fortunate that I will be half-retired/self employed by the time the entire industry is a mix of sweatshops and plumbing work, which will be before the end of the decade.

I'd swear it just keeps getting worse.

Re: Forget going back to the office – people are just quitting instead

#390

Post by jliptzin » Mon, Jun 14, 2021, 2:16 PM UTC

Of all the people I know who prefer to work in the office rather than WFH, it's always for reasons unrelated to the actual merits of WFH. For example, they live in a tiny apartment in the city with wife, kids, nanny, and need a place to go to get away during the day. Or in one interesting case someone wants a chance to hit on other employees.