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Ancient Greek accents in ten rules

antigonejournal.com

11–20 of 54 posts

Re: Ancient Greek accents in ten rules

#11

Thanks for sharing this. Antigone runs open-access articles on anything to do with the Greeks, Romans and what the world has made of them since. We are committed to two things: opening up Classics to as wide an audience as possible, especially autodidacts who could not study the subject at school or college; and having no paywall, no paid susbcription and no profit motive. If you're interested to see what we've run i…

Is the musical about Greek accentuation, mentioned in footnote 25, still on Kickstarter? I couldn't find it.

Re: Ancient Greek accents in ten rules

#14
post #11

Thanks for sharing this. Antigone runs open-access articles on anything to do with the Greeks, Romans and what the world has made of them since. We are committed to two things: opening up Classics to as wide an audience as possible, especially autodidacts who could not study the subject at school or college; and having no paywall, no paid susbcription and no profit motive. If you're interested to see what we've run i…

Is the musical about Greek accentuation, mentioned in footnote 25, still on Kickstarter? I couldn't find it.

We never found it either - so there's a danger this may be a joke!

Re: Ancient Greek accents in ten rules

#15
post #4
post #2

When I had to write Polytonic Greek, I had to write my own vim plugin that would transliterate on demand. For instance, while in insert mode h''als turns into ἃλς. It's okay to laugh at the ancient Greek and its words that look similar to us, but we should not forget that the words with different accents sounded differently, so it was probably not confusing to native speakers. Moreover, every language has its homopho…

> and I can't identify "o" from "a" in most Russian words Unaccented "o" and "a" are exact homophones, Russian children are trained in school to memorize the spelling in order to differentiate between the two.

They may well be exact homophones in some/all dialects of Russian, but I'm not sure that children having to memorise spellings is evidence for that. Don't both English and German, for example, have almost-homophones that children typically learn to distinguish by learning the spelling rather than by hearing the subtle difference in pronunciation? If you look at the spelling mistakes made by 12-16-year-olds in England and Germany, don't you find a significant proportion of them are caused by the child having incorrectly heard how people pronounce the word?

I suppose it's an interesting phenomenon that some (but not all?) languages have subtle phonetic differences that even native speakers cannot always easily distinguish.

Re: Ancient Greek accents in ten rules

#16
post #15
post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> and I can't identify "o" from "a" in most Russian words Unaccented "o" and "a" are exact homophones, Russian children are trained in school to memorize the spelling in order to differentiate between the two.

They may well be exact homophones in some/all dialects of Russian, but I'm not sure that children having to memorise spellings is evidence for that. Don't both English and German, for example, have almost-homophones that children typically learn to distinguish by learning the spelling rather than by hearing the subtle difference in pronunciation? If you look at the spelling mistakes made by 12-16-year-olds in England…

> If you look at the spelling mistakes made by 12-16-year-olds in England and Germany, don't you find a significant proportion of them are caused by the child having incorrectly heard how people pronounce the word?

I don't know about England, but I think in Germany it's more common that children represent the pronunciation accurately, but are "corrected" by adults who want to enforce the standard orthography.

E.g. take the example on page 2 of http://www.edu.lmu.de/lbp/personen/wiss_ma/eckerlein/seminar... : LOITETOTSUFARENiSTLBÖD. In Standard German, that would be "Leute totzufahren ist blöd." Except for switching L and B, the original isn't wrong about the pronunciation: represents [ɔʏ] and represents [ts], so using and instead is perfectly reasonable.

Re: Ancient Greek accents in ten rules

#17
post #15
post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> and I can't identify "o" from "a" in most Russian words Unaccented "o" and "a" are exact homophones, Russian children are trained in school to memorize the spelling in order to differentiate between the two.

They may well be exact homophones in some/all dialects of Russian, but I'm not sure that children having to memorise spellings is evidence for that. Don't both English and German, for example, have almost-homophones that children typically learn to distinguish by learning the spelling rather than by hearing the subtle difference in pronunciation? If you look at the spelling mistakes made by 12-16-year-olds in England…

Quite the opposite, there are some dialects (e.g. Vologda dialect) where they are pronounced differently, there is a term for that, it's called "о́канье". But the norm is that a native speaker can't differentiate between the two unless he/she has other clues apart from the sound of it.

I can imagine you can detect slight unconscious difference that an educated native speaker introduces by means of computer analysis of sound samples etc., but it's not a phonetically significant difference for a human.

Re: Ancient Greek accents in ten rules

#18
post #16
post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They may well be exact homophones in some/all dialects of Russian, but I'm not sure that children having to memorise spellings is evidence for that. Don't both English and German, for example, have almost-homophones that children typically learn to distinguish by learning the spelling rather than by hearing the subtle difference in pronunciation? If you look at the spelling mistakes made by 12-16-year-olds in England…

> If you look at the spelling mistakes made by 12-16-year-olds in England and Germany, don't you find a significant proportion of them are caused by the child having incorrectly heard how people pronounce the word? I don't know about England, but I think in Germany it's more common that children represent the pronunciation accurately, but are "corrected" by adults who want to enforce the standard orthography. E.g. ta…

It doesn't seem perfectly reasonable to me. Using "totsufaren" instead of the correct spelling because the 't' sound is already in 'tot' destroys consistency with hinzufahren, auszufahren. And I'm not convinced that 'oi' and 'eu' represent the same sound in German, since 'eu' is a diphthong and always sounds long, whereas 'oi' is a short vowel followed by a glide: [oᶦ].

Re: Ancient Greek accents in ten rules

#19

Is there a trend of written language simplifying over the ages? (Greek and Chinese examples come to mind). Is there an objective way to measure / rank script complexity? Assuming its true, is it correlated with more people becoming literate over time (hence simplifying the educational process)?

The Greek alphabet was derived from the Phoenician alphabet, and the fact that it replaced the local writing and spread quickly suggests that a simpler technique of writing can win. I think the trend you see is the most common behavior.

But the evolution of written languages is not a simple process. It is often influenced by political choice. E.g. Hangul for Korean, simplification laws in Germany or France.

I can think of few exceptions where the simplification of a written language was rejected. The Sumerian ideograms were simplified after their introduction circa -3300. The writing system was adapted to the Akkadian language which was the dominant spoken languages for centuries. It mixed pure ideograms with double readings and syllabic symbols (a bit like Japanese). But after 900 BC, when neo-Assyrian ruled, Akkadian was declining, as well as writing on clay. There was a clear tendency to complexify the tablets: for example adding more symbols or reviving archaic expressions. Akkadian was the language of the elites, and simplifying it would "degrade" it.

Disclaimer: I have been interested in ancient writings, with a particular attention to Mesopotamia, but I'm not an expert.

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