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As religious faith has declined, ideological intensity has risen

theatlantic.com

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Re: As religious faith has declined, ideological intensity has risen

#751

Post by dang »

colinmhayes wrote: post #675
vxNsr wrote: post #650

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's some major projection going on here. You're wrong again, both with your interpretations and what it means to worship something. Let's unpack: adultery in this context doesn't mean premarital sex, it means sex with someone who is already married. And in the context of the bible, you are likely married to your gf so actually you're already keeping this one, good job! > And the "dont't covet" verse is also great…

"If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they shall surely be put to death; their blood is upon them." You can't tell me the bibles moral framework is reasonable when it says to kill gay people.

Please do not take HN threads further into the hell of religious flamewar.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re: As religious faith has declined, ideological intensity has risen

#752

Post by dang »

vxNsr wrote: post #694
colinmhayes wrote: post #675

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they shall surely be put to death; their blood is upon them." You can't tell me the bibles moral framework is reasonable when it says to kill gay people.

Hello red herring, how are you today, no I don’t think I’ll have any, thank you

Perpetuating flamewars on HN like this will get you banned here. No more of this, please. We've already had to warn you several times in the past about breaking the site guidelines.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re: As religious faith has declined, ideological intensity has risen

#753

Post by agensaequivocum »

pdonis wrote: post #198
tonymet wrote: post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let’s be honest, most people don’t have the time to weigh the evidence of say 90% of their beliefs. They go to school & watch television, and generally adopt the beliefs of their surroundings. And believing that religious believers accept 100% of religious belief without reasoning about them is a misunderstanding.

> believing that religious believers accept 100% of religious belief without reasoning about them is a misunderstanding. I didn't say anything about religions and ideologies not using reasoning. Anyone who has read, say, Thomas Aquinas is perfectly aware that religious people can use all kinds of complicated reasoning to justify their beliefs. What I did say is that the set of beliefs in question are "all asserted as…

This shows you lack understanding of the fundamental philosophical system by which his arguments are built, espcially Aristotle. Dispute what many think, Aristotle did a lot of experimentation. He was not an arm chair philosopher. St Thomas' arguments are anything but circular.

Re: As religious faith has declined, ideological intensity has risen

#754

Post by dang »

andrepd wrote: post #708
vxNsr wrote: post #650

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's some major projection going on here. You're wrong again, both with your interpretations and what it means to worship something. Let's unpack: adultery in this context doesn't mean premarital sex, it means sex with someone who is already married. And in the context of the bible, you are likely married to your gf so actually you're already keeping this one, good job! > And the "dont't covet" verse is also great…

[flagged]

Comments like this will get you banned here. Please see https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27498308.

Re: As religious faith has declined, ideological intensity has risen

#755

Post by nikolay »

baby wrote: post #540
nikolay wrote: post #430

Yeah, people need to believe in something - faith is part of our human nature, and that's why it's a phenomenon across the globe. As an Eastern Orthodox, I don't need any ideology other than Orthodoxy, which defines my value system and which pretty much gives me an answer for all the good and bad happening; it's unifying, not dividing. That's why I have a hard time associating myself with any secular ideology, as the…

Interesting. I always found religion divisive. If I don’t believe in God then I can’t really take part in all these cool religious community stuff like church, boy scouts, etc.

Orthodox people don't try to convert others, although we're genuinely happy when others discover Orthodoxy, and priests never claim that it is the exclusive religion for salvation. Indeed, often they will tell you that when you get baptized, you get only responsibilities, and no privileges, so, it's like a coop of people helping each other thru the guidance of clergy. For example, liturgies start with the priest bowing in front of the Parish and send me "Please, forgive me, a sinner."

Re: As religious faith has declined, ideological intensity has risen

#756

Post by rsj_hn »

nikolay wrote: post #755
baby wrote: post #540

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interesting. I always found religion divisive. If I don’t believe in God then I can’t really take part in all these cool religious community stuff like church, boy scouts, etc.

Orthodox people don't try to convert others, although we're genuinely happy when others discover Orthodoxy, and priests never claim that it is the exclusive religion for salvation. Indeed, often they will tell you that when you get baptized, you get only responsibilities, and no privileges, so, it's like a coop of people helping each other thru the guidance of clergy. For example, liturgies start with the priest bowi…

Back in grad school I had an orthodox roomate who showed me some of their faith, and I discovered Orthodox churches have beautiful liturgies. Here is a recording of Rachmaninoff's liturgy of St. John Chrysostomus.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K94ePzs14Nc

Also a lot of the orthodox church fathers are pretty amazing and I enjoy reading their writings. Here is Symeon the New Theologian, one of the three Great Hierarchs of the Eastern Church (along with Basil of Caesarea and John Chrysostom), from his Ethical Discourses:

"I learned from Scripture and from experience itself that the cross comes at the end for no other reason than that we must endure trials and tribulations and finally voluntary death itself. In times past, when heresies prevailed, many chose death through martyrdom and various tortures. Now, when we through the grace of Christ live in a time of profound and perfect peace, we learn for sure that cross and death consist in nothing else than the complete putting to death of self-will. He who pursues his own will, however slightly, will never be able to observe the law of Christ the Savior."

There is both a rich liturgical tradition and a rich literary tradition in Orthodox Christianity.

Re: As religious faith has declined, ideological intensity has risen

#757

Post by em-bee »

AndrewKemendo wrote: post #681
Barrin92 wrote: post #568

I think the real issue is laid out at the end >"If matters of good and evil are not to be resolved by an omniscient God in the future, then Americans will judge and render punishment now. We are a nation of believers. If only Americans could begin believing in politics less fervently, realizing instead that life is elsewhere. But this would come at a cost—because to believe in politics also means believing we can, an…

The question for me is: Is a mutually shared narrative required for a society to maintain cohesion and engagement at scale? If the assumption is "yes" then the challenge becomes whether the narrative is actually epistemologically solid enough to bear scrutiny from all angles - something I don't actually believe exists. I think in the US the narrative since the Colonies formed, has been something like "Land of Opportu…

if we want to maintain cohesion and engagement, we must have something that binds us together.

current and past mainstream religions are not capable of achieving this. they were not meant to. they did achieve it for the society at the time they were founded, but the world has moved on and religions stagnated.

and it's not just society at a national level. we live in a global society. our interconnections worldwide are to deep to be able to separate societies by nation.

a religion today must be capable of creating cohesion and engagement on a global scale. it must bear scrutiny from all angles indeed, from every corner of this planet.

if we can't find a religion that is capable of achieving this, then indeed we may be better off without any religion.

Re: As religious faith has declined, ideological intensity has risen

#758

Post by roenxi »

kazoomonger wrote: post #687
roenxi wrote: post #626

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Being religious isn't a weakness, it is an inevitability. A human mind is very limited and not up to the challenge of understanding everything - people have to accept most of their knowledge through social proof. Once social proof is involved religious-looking structures evolve rapidly. It isn't a matter of having or not having cognitive tools, it is that the tools necessary to avoid faith and community can't exist.…

That is a bad definition of religion. I will accept a field of study's conclusions in the absence of time myself to investigate. However, if it turns out that field is incorrect (say with the reproducibility crisis), then I won't "have faith" and believe anyways. In other words, belief != faith, and I'm willing to update my beliefs based on new evidence.

That is hardly a strong argument, religious people can do all that too and still be highly faith based.

Re: As religious faith has declined, ideological intensity has risen

#759

Post by friedman23 »

lotsofpulp wrote: post #404
friedman23 wrote: post #324

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know you and can't speak for you. But my point that all the people on here criticizing people on their moral systems are baseless stands. These same people would've been in the mob in salem executing so called witches a couple hundred years ago and would have been just as certain in their beliefs then.

It is funny seeing this: > These same people would've been in the mob in salem executing so called witches a couple hundred years ago and would have been just as certain in their beliefs then. after this: > I don't know you and can't speak for you.

Explain how this is funny at all?

Re: As religious faith has declined, ideological intensity has risen

#760

Post by friedman23 »

andrepd wrote: post #384
friedman23 wrote: post #312

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ah yeah, good argument, a field of study exists. Given you are a well educated atheist you can explain the underpinnings of your morality right?

Yes. A set of ab initio values and the golden rule as a base, and societal consensus to work out the finer details.

Yeah, I wasn't asking what your beliefs were. I was asking why your beliefs are the "true" beliefs.
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