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The Swiss reject key climate change measures

bbc.com

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Re: The Swiss reject key climate change measures

#41

Post by mynameishere »

davedx wrote: post #28
version_five wrote: post #19

The Swiss rejected some taxes. I think this is an important distinction compared to "climate change measures". The (very slim) majority may feel that such taxes are not the best way to deal with climate change, and support other ideas instead. There are a lot of politicians presenting the false choice of wealth redistribution or climate change apathy. There are other ways of looking at this, which I don't think are c…

Okay. Now do Swiss voters on migrants, refugees, and participation in science programmes of the EU. What you’ll find is that the Swiss are an insular myopic bunch.

I'm guessing by your tone that the Swiss voted in their interests rather than the interests of international bankers on all those items?

Re: The Swiss reject key climate change measures

#42

Post by alkonaut »

version_five wrote: post #19

The Swiss rejected some taxes. I think this is an important distinction compared to "climate change measures". The (very slim) majority may feel that such taxes are not the best way to deal with climate change, and support other ideas instead. There are a lot of politicians presenting the false choice of wealth redistribution or climate change apathy. There are other ways of looking at this, which I don't think are c…

> The Swiss rejected some taxes. I think this is an important distinction compared to "climate change measures". The (very slim) majority may feel that such taxes are not the best way to deal with climate change, and support other ideas instead.

Which is a very succinct description of why “direct democracy” (or overuse of referendums) is, simply put, not a good idea.

A vote on tax X versus tax Y? Fine. But voting yes or no on taxes? Next thing you’ll see a vote on an expense separate from the funding…

Re: The Swiss reject key climate change measures

#43

Post by fighterpilot »

thysultan wrote: post #27

>car fuel levy, tax on air tickets. Non of which would have done anything but raise prices for the aforementioned, it was just a swiss politicians hustle to try and tax citizens masqueraded as "climate measures".

I don't get this absolutist stance.

Wouldn't it directly cause more people to buy EVs, and wouldn't it directly cause less people to fly overseas?

ICE cars have direct substitutes and holidays aren't totally price inelastic.

Re: The Swiss reject key climate change measures

#44

Post by throwaway6734 »

mynameishere wrote: post #41
davedx wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Okay. Now do Swiss voters on migrants, refugees, and participation in science programmes of the EU. What you’ll find is that the Swiss are an insular myopic bunch.

I'm guessing by your tone that the Swiss voted in their interests rather than the interests of international bankers on all those items?

International bankers?

Re: The Swiss reject key climate change measures

#45

Post by throwawinsider »

davedx wrote: post #28
version_five wrote: post #19

The Swiss rejected some taxes. I think this is an important distinction compared to "climate change measures". The (very slim) majority may feel that such taxes are not the best way to deal with climate change, and support other ideas instead. There are a lot of politicians presenting the false choice of wealth redistribution or climate change apathy. There are other ways of looking at this, which I don't think are c…

Okay. Now do Swiss voters on migrants, refugees, and participation in science programmes of the EU. What you’ll find is that the Swiss are an insular myopic bunch.

Can you please elaborate on the myopia diagnostic? Your opinion is peculiar so I am curious.

Re: The Swiss reject key climate change measures

#46

Post by quequeque »

davedx wrote: post #28
version_five wrote: post #19

The Swiss rejected some taxes. I think this is an important distinction compared to "climate change measures". The (very slim) majority may feel that such taxes are not the best way to deal with climate change, and support other ideas instead. There are a lot of politicians presenting the false choice of wealth redistribution or climate change apathy. There are other ways of looking at this, which I don't think are c…

Okay. Now do Swiss voters on migrants, refugees, and participation in science programmes of the EU. What you’ll find is that the Swiss are an insular myopic bunch.

Regardless of your opinion, I don't think it is in the best interests of this forum to voice your disagreement with the Swiss voters by using a word like myopic.

Re: The Swiss reject key climate change measures

#47

Post by gerdesj »

version_five wrote: post #19

The Swiss rejected some taxes. I think this is an important distinction compared to "climate change measures". The (very slim) majority may feel that such taxes are not the best way to deal with climate change, and support other ideas instead. There are a lot of politicians presenting the false choice of wealth redistribution or climate change apathy. There are other ways of looking at this, which I don't think are c…

The BBC article says that the laws were drafted to try and codify Switzerland's approach to the Paris Agreement and a referendum was held to decide whether Switzerland would enact those laws.

I would interpret the result as the Swiss people rejected their government's latest stab at enacting Paris. At 51:49 that's a: "Good effort, have another go and get it right this time. Please."

Re: The Swiss reject key climate change measures

#48

Post by lucb1e »

mustafa_pasi wrote: post #12

"Fighting" climate change on a national level like this is disingenuous. It is not going to accomplish anything. There needs to be global agreements involving the biggest players. Else it is just a self inflicted penalty that accomplishes nothing.

On an individual level, people make choices about climate change. For example solar panels or electric vehicle when not doing so would simply be easier or cheaper.

Municipalities are looking at how to switch away from gas-based heating in houses, for example using district heat.

Regional governments also play a role, though I don't remember by heart which were the kinds of things they decide on. Pretty sure it involved land use, for example where to place wind turbines, but I could be wrong.

Until we have "global agreements involving the biggest players", I really don't think we should avoid making climate-impacting decisions on a national level. If we need to first get the whole planet to agree on a course of action, we'll start getting to net-zero right around the time that Elon leaves for Mars.

Re: The Swiss reject key climate change measures

#49

Post by alkonaut »

PKop wrote: post #34
davedx wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Okay. Now do Swiss voters on migrants, refugees, and participation in science programmes of the EU. What you’ll find is that the Swiss are an insular myopic bunch.

Good for them. Ultimately they view their positions on these issues as best for the well being of their nation and its people. Who are you to say otherwise, should they pursue policies that go against their interests to satisfy foreigners? Why would they want refugees and migrants to come into their country? How would it benefit them?

> should they pursue policies that go against their interests to satisfy foreigners?

To some extent I think it’s absolutely fair to expect that, yes. Especially in the richer countries of the world.

Re: The Swiss reject key climate change measures

#50

Post by nexuist »

ratsforhorses wrote: post #26
mustafa_pasi wrote: post #12

"Fighting" climate change on a national level like this is disingenuous. It is not going to accomplish anything. There needs to be global agreements involving the biggest players. Else it is just a self inflicted penalty that accomplishes nothing.

I think if you can afford to show by example , you should... any penalty you incur makes you better prepared and more competitive for later...

Alternatively, investing in renewable energy is not a penalty at all. Whoever wins this technological race is eventually going to list every other country as a customer, because there will be no other choice when oil runs out. Behind the moral do-good-ness of corporate and state-backed environmental activism is a race to become the next Aramco.
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