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Forget going back to the office – people are just quitting instead

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Re: Forget going back to the office – people are just quitting instead

#111

Post by WalterBright »

dsyrk wrote: post #62
xvector wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If this was really the case, WFH would be a no-brainer and would not meet so much resistance from management. Most companies clearly care more about the fact that they can account for the time you’re in office, as opposed to how productive you actually are.

I switched my tech company to full WFH. I also implemented detailed surveillance on all employees, which I don’t disclose. It shows me keyboard/mouse activity levels and window update rates. It’s very interesting information, I have much better insight how and when people work, which are very different from each other. I also have other productivity measures and now I can really understand when someone is not working…

That only works until someone writes a "boss" app that pretends to click keys and move the mouse.

Back in the 80's, many computer games had a "boss" key which would pause the game and throw up a screen that looked like a spreadsheet.

Re: Forget going back to the office – people are just quitting instead

#112

Post by marcinzm »

xvector wrote: post #60
marcinzm wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Being the only one talking to the VPs and CEO in the office during lunch is probably going to be a great career boost. So don't be surprised when the people who go into the office get the nice promotions and you don't. Interestingly my whole team is very much in favor of being in the office a few days a week.

Most promotions happen by moving jobs anyways, so eh.

And the best jobs go to personal referrals from those who are trusted. Which is easier if the VP you used to work with is vouching for you than if they don't know you.

Re: Forget going back to the office – people are just quitting instead

#113

Post by WalterBright »

leesalminen wrote: post #105
stragio wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People like you ruin planet earth, really, try to put more trust in people. Oh and if you didn't yet, watch Black Mirror.

Exactly. Why employ people you don’t trust? It sounds very tiring. I certainly don’t have time for it running a successful, fast-growing company. I’ve employed people before who eroded my trust in them. I either fired them or nudged them to find a new job, depending on the severity of the thing they did to make me not trust them.

> Why employ people you don’t trust?

Sometimes the unions/courts require a company to document incompetence for a certain number of months before being able to let a person go.

I don't agree with these requirements, but can see how they could incentivize surveillance apps.

Re: Forget going back to the office – people are just quitting instead

#114

Post by WalterBright »

obmelvin wrote: post #45
WalterBright wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> iron grip Jeez, give it a rest. Companies don't give a crap about your life. None have ever showed the slightest interest in anything I do when not at work.

I feel your point, but obviously not every work environment is the same.

The phrase "people like ice cream" does not mean "all people like ice cream".

Re: Forget going back to the office – people are just quitting instead

#115

Post by rocqua »

strgrd wrote: post #10
xvector wrote: post #3

Can’t imagine not having at least partial WFH after this pandemic. If my office doesn’t let me WFH, I will also be leaving. A good portion of my team is similarly minded, but management is insistent on disallowing WFH. I can’t wait to see their faces when the company bleeds massive swaths of engineering talent. It’s about damn time that companies realized that they ought to treat their employees like the adults that…

The hybrid model is such a joke. For most, working in the office might as well be the 21st century business suit: an antiquated formality designed to demonstrate your obedience to authority. The hybrid model is a suit on a t-shirt. And forcing employees to be in the office X days a week means productivity on those WFH days will be nonexistent, especially if they butt against a weekend. But of course while the WFH lif…

The hybrid model makes sense, because some people (like me) enjoy being at the office with colleagues.

I don't want a situation where I am forced to always be in the office. But I also don't want to have colleagues I never see. That doesn't mean "mandate exactly X days at work". But it does mean "be at the office sometimes".

Re: Forget going back to the office – people are just quitting instead

#116

Post by dheera »

cyberlurker wrote: post #6

I actually don’t mind one way or the other, but I just want a clear rationale for over riding the employees preference. I despise the water cooler theory because I’m perfectly capable of socializing over voip or IM. I do it at work and then shortly afterwards with friends on discord. The real reasons for return to office should be tangible. If you have metrics that people are taking advantage, share them. The only th…

It's also worth noting that there's a huge bias toward pure software engineers on HN.

I do software, but I have to work with some large industrial hardware and it's so much easier to just have the hardware in front of you. Especially when you have to from time to time set up hardware that isn't even on the network yet.

Telepresence just isn't there yet, and the quality of internet connections and videoconference tools still suck. I have dual 4K monitors and still get 720p feeds or worse on most videoconference tools, you can't even read a damn whiteboard with that, let alone push physical reset buttons or e-stop buttons on actual hardware.

Re: Forget going back to the office – people are just quitting instead

#117

Post by irrational »

marcinzm wrote: post #31
Raed667 wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm struggling with the idea of hybrid WFH. It still means that I need to live near the office. Instead of a cheaper, quieter place far away from cities. Besides making middle-management happy, I'm not sure what is the benefit of having one required day per week at the office.

I've found that it's much harder to form social bonds, especially cross-team, when working remotely and never seeing people in person. Socializing via Zoom is not the same. The lack of lunch and hallway conversation hurts a lot without even getting into the outside of work socializing. That in turn leads to minor issues exploding because no one has a sense of empathy built for anyone else.

I’ve worked at the same company for nearly 20 years. I’ve had precisely 0 lunch and hallway conversations in all of those years. Lunch time is when I go work out. If I’m not working out, I’m sitting at my my desk working. Socializing is for non-work hours. However, I’ve learned a lot more about coworkers (some of whom I’ve worked with for more than 10 years) during the pandemic from talking at the beginning of zoom calls waiting for everyone to show up.

Re: Forget going back to the office – people are just quitting instead

#118

Post by the-dude »

WalterBright wrote: post #101
the-dude wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have you ever been asked to come in on Saturdays? Often?

Sure. That's an interest in getting work done, not putting my life under iron control. I got paid overtime for it, too.

So they were very much interested in what you did when not at work : they wanted you to come in at work.

Re: Forget going back to the office – people are just quitting instead

#119

Post by WalterBright »

the-dude wrote: post #118
WalterBright wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure. That's an interest in getting work done, not putting my life under iron control. I got paid overtime for it, too.

So they were very much interested in what you did when not at work : they wanted you to come in at work.

> So they were very much interested in what you did when not at work

That does not follow.

Re: Forget going back to the office – people are just quitting instead

#120

Post by ratsforhorses »

dsyrk wrote: post #62
xvector wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If this was really the case, WFH would be a no-brainer and would not meet so much resistance from management. Most companies clearly care more about the fact that they can account for the time you’re in office, as opposed to how productive you actually are.

I switched my tech company to full WFH. I also implemented detailed surveillance on all employees, which I don’t disclose. It shows me keyboard/mouse activity levels and window update rates. It’s very interesting information, I have much better insight how and when people work, which are very different from each other. I also have other productivity measures and now I can really understand when someone is not working…

Have you seen an increase in productivity?
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